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MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Heydave..We should not make the mistake of wrongly separating 'spiritual' from 'secular" can be used to condone carnality. So the separation should be between spiritual and fleshly (carnal), not spiritual and secular.


Wow! you threw me a curve here, I am still reading it and trying to figure out what you said, give me a little time. :)


_________________
Bill

 2014/4/3 15:10Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Hi Bill,
your quote of me is missing some words.:) so maybe if you read it again you might get it?

what I tried to say was what you said, that we should NOT create a spiritual/secular division. In that you have one part of your life doing 'spiritual things and another part doing non spiritual (secular) things. We should be spiritual in all things. I thought my illustration explained it.
However there is a division between spirit and flesh (Galatians 5).


_________________
Dave

 2014/4/3 15:30Profile









 Re:

Quote:
There are good points being made about being spiritual in everyday things of life. We should not make the mistake of wrongly seperating 'spiritual' from 'secular'. Andrew Kelly also has a point in that this can be used to condone carnality. So the separation should be between spiritual and fleshly (carnal), not spiritual and secular. heydave



I think this is exactly where truth lays Dave. Just-In also made an interesting point one time, perhaps in another thread, when he drew a distinction between that which arises out of the body as attending to worldliness. It was a thread on the question of what is worldliness I think. I have though about his comment a few times and believe it is a very good insight. Worldliness or loving the world seems to mean satisfying the demand of the body as much as anything else. Entertainment falls right into that ball park.

For me at least I think there is another important dissection to make as well. The apostles of Christ tell us in many places to flee from this world and its passions. If you think on this one would have to ask how that is really possible, especially when the very body itself so easily agrees with the world of passions such as gluttony, entertainment, pleasing effects, a need for comforts. Paul the apostle certainly didn't see things naturally. He continuously reminded those he was serving to flee from youthful passions, the passions or lusts of the flesh, the vanity of the natural mind and so on. Yet I doubt that he despised a good meal and pleasant company.

Jesus on the other hand sought out sinners. It was the evidence that He had come to save sinners. When He ate with prostitutes the Lord did not covet them with His eyes, but desired them with His heart. It seems to have had a profound impact on them, as many of them provided the finances for the Lord's ministry. Jesus was preparing His own body for the cross unto death. We are called to walk in the death of the cross unto the kingdom of heaven. There are somethings which the Lord did which few would be advised to do unless they really did know in experience the meaning of the cross. Apart from that, everyday things which seem innocent may be no less a cause of stumbling, than seeking out prostitutes for fellowship.

 2014/4/3 15:44
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

 Col 3:17

And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

Someone said about this verse that if you cannot do it in the name of the Lord and give thanks for it, then it is not ok.


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Dave

 2014/4/3 15:46Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Maybe this scripture might fit in here somewhere.
Trust in The Lord with all your heart and lean not on yourself. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he will direct thy paths. Prov. 3:5-6


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Bill

 2014/4/3 17:11Profile









 Re:

The thing is, in our "secular life", we are still to be spiritual.

But, I don't divide up my life into secular and spiritual slices since I am called to walk in the spirit at all times and represent Christ every where I go. Did the apostles have a secular and spiritual side? Was Paul secular when mending tents or do you think he was still abiding in Christ.

The one brother had the good verse I was thinking of:

Colossians 3:23
23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

Our whole life is now spiritual since we have been joined to His spirit. We are in Him and He is in us, everywhere we go.



 2014/4/3 17:26









 Re:

Quote:
Our whole life is now spiritual since we have been joined to His spirit. We are in Him and He is in us, everywhere we go.



I truly think that this saying is too far.

If there is one reality which we can comprehend if we have the stomach to look into it, is the fact that believers can devour other believers.

“But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:15–21, NASB95)

The simple fact of unity in our spirits with the life of Christ does nothing for outward reality if we walk in the flesh. The fact that we are called to walk in the Spirit does not mean that we do walk in the Spirit. If walking in the Spirit were an automatic thing, then we would not be called to do it at all. It would simply happen by reason of being born again. I believe that although your emphasis is a little different in that you use the term secular and spiritual, which on the face of it means other than flesh and spirit, the effect of failing to properly differentiate between the flesh and the spirit will mean that we will walk after the flesh and not after the Spirit even in so-called secular activities.

It is precisely by failing to see the need at 'all times' to walk in the Spirit which leads to a belief that all activities, regardless as to their purpose and source of power, amounts to true service of Christ. In that event we end up with a complete lack of distinction between that which is truly Spirit and life and that which is common to all men everywhere. Personally although I can see that this will be perceived as contentious I would go as far as saying that if we assert that a true understanding of what is spiritual activity finds that it is unnecessary to draw any distinctions in a persons life actions then this will in the end lead to a whole-man philosophy, where spiritual or natural are indistinguishable in action or speech. This itself is based on a holistic philosophical understanding of oneness. It is ancient occult thinking. The result of this kind of thinking can be seen in the very way in which believers can devour one another and believe that they are serving God.

 2014/4/3 19:25









 Re:

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying, Kelly or perhaps I am not saying it very well. I will think about how to post an answer with more clarity.

I am not perceiving it as contentious at all. It is an opportunity for me to be clearer.

Thank you.

 2014/4/3 19:29









 Re: Entertainment vs. Recreation

Brother(?) TMK..(or sister?...whats your name?...i'm neil, "Hez"..."Hezekiah Wellington" is a pen name, which I haven't had to use yet)

I finally felt led to enter into this thread, (and I also converse with my beloved sister Mary Jane, who I love in the Lord, and is precious to me....she is very precious to me, as I have seen the Mercy and Grace given to her, through her loving measured words....and at times, I have felt her prayers for me, which I am eternally grateful for)

brother, you wrote, (i'm referencing the OP)

Quote:
There are a couple of threads that have discussed what type of entertainment might be suitable for true believers.



i'm almost certain you're referring to the "Noah" threads generated...I have to say, I was very disturbed in my soul, when I read this term...."a true Christian"....'wouldn't go see this film'. (i'm paraphrasing the last part, but it was MORE than implied, and I was disturbed and distressed to the core of my soul;

what right does a fellow 'blade of grass' have to pronounce who IS a "true Christian"?....and the person who made this mal statement should KNOW BETTER....that's what REALLY tears at my heart. I kept silent at the time, though it burned within me.

"a true Christian"....I can tell you all this; I am not a "true Christian...oh no. I am a Jew who follows Jesus, who has heard the voice of Messiah, repeating to me, that precious Portion of Scripture from John 1, Red Letters, when Jesus first met Nathanael:

"When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.” John 1:48

"TRULY"...I can think of NO GREATER personal joy, than having Messiah testify about one's self..."in whom there is no deceit".

Oh, its a high bar to consider when Jesus says that to a mere man, mortal, with all of our failings, but I thank you and praise You, my Dear Lord and Messiah.

and please brethren , try not to misuse Paul's writing, "there is no Jew, nor Greek", etc....this is not what Paul meant, who later wrote that he was a "Hebrew of Hebrew, a Pharisee of Pharisee"s, etc. What Paul meant by the "There is no more Jew, nor Greek"...is don't try to claim some "Godly superiority" in being born and raised as a Hebrew, or even IMPLYING 'superiority' because of this fact of my lineage, both physical, and in faith, being raised to read and write Hebrew, being trained in Torah, since a boy.....and the reason, I even register it....is the burning hope and desire that should ONE other Jew read my testimony, That God the Holy Spirit would let them KNOW, it's OKAY to confess Messiah Jesus as Lord and Savior.

That's why I write that: "a Jew who follows Jesus", not to imply "superiority" (God forbid!, as I esteem others above myself) nor to foist "Hebraic Roots teachings" upon my brothers and sisters, teachings i'm not even familiar with, because God has kept me BLISSFULLY unaware of such "teachings", because they lead to a dead end.

I wouldn't go see "Noah", because I read the director VOWED he'd make a film that was SO "anti-Biblical", which to me is SO anti-Christ, that I , in turn, had to make a VOW, I wouldn't spend a NICKEL to see the thing.

Full disclosure, I spent most of my adult life, working in the entertainment industry at a pretty high level, and I noticed that there is this kind of "oh so hip" thing to deny, one is a person of Faith, that one LOVES God, that one LOVES Jesus.

testify to that? You're "uncool"....Good! I never worried much about being "cool"....my heartstance EVEN when I didn't know or follow Messiah Jesus was to be one in "whom there is no deceit".

Now, God in His Mercy, took me OUT of the entertainment industry in 2009, He broke my body, literally, and our Loving Father, Abba God, made certain that resource was provided to me, and I tell you, brethren, I give all my praise and thankfulness to Him, for such tender care, loving care....never to despise it.

Now I await His Calling on my life....I DONT know what this calling is yet....I am waiting on the Lord.

Brother TMK, you wrote:

Quote:
Another question is this: Is recreation the same as entertainment? For example, if I take a hike in the woods or go fishing because I like to, is that entertainment? At least for me?

I tend to think that God wants us to enjoy his creation. Some do this by camping or other outside activities while others play games like baseball.

Is this wrong? If I do these things am I substituting it for joy? What if I find joy in doing it? Can't certain forms of entertainment or recreation be done as unto The Lord?



beloved brother, as the Lord leads, I don't think its "wrong", unless your heart and the Indwelling Holy Spirit, says it's sin...you KNOW when sin is sin, and a walk thru the woods?

What a blessed occasion to marvel at the Depth of the Mind of God as Creator, as Master Designer, to gaze at a White Oak, with a Shagbark Hickory, next to it....both trees....yes?....but both designed with differences....crucial differences....the "fruit" of the white oak is an acorn, to make flour of crushed acorn, one has to crush the acorns, then strain the tannin of it, before making an acorn cake over fire....you have to strain that tannin of it though....AND if i'm not mistaken to cure leather, one uses tannin....while the shagbark hickory nut , one can eat of hand, ALTHOUGH after cracking the shell, there is not a LOT of meat to the nut, although a mature fertile hickory will kick off a LOT of nuts.

and the very wood of the two trees?....even though both have the highest BTU content for firewood in a typical hardwood forest (such a forest surrounds me, Praise God!!).....both trees are very different...I have actually split, cured and burned, for heat, a big bolt of white oak, that was laying on the ground for five years.....but if you let a shagbark hickory lay on the ground for even one season, its rots very very quickly, and is consumed by many bugs.

in the natural, one would think, that hickory, so hard and tough, would LAST laying on the ground, right?.....not so. Here's the fascinating thing...once it gets cut down,unless you harvest the wood quickly, that is, to saw it into "biscuits", then take your hydraulic ram splitter, to turn it into firewood, and let dry such firewood off the ground.....if you don't do that, right quick?....it rots.."right quick".

after reading what I just wrote, one might say, in an accusatory way, i'm "worshipping the creation".....not so. I worship the Depth and Intricacy of the MIND OF GOD, that can design such a bounty for us, in His Love, that can heat our homes, during the winter months.

so a walk thru the woods, pondering and marveling over the mind of Our Father God, Praise His Holy Name, is not only clean healthy "recreation", but WORSHIP, then work, if you need firewood to heat your home, which I do.

In the Prophets, where man goes off base, is take this wood, and craft "gods" and "idols" as an object of worship. A through study of the Prophets, reveal that the Fury of the LORD is really stoked, when man worships idols, both in Isaiah and Jeremiah are long passages devoted to the sad futility and madness of the "idolmaker"....with one piece of wood, he crafts the statue, with another he bakes his bread, and with another he heats himself........and calls that statue a "god"?!?

with baseball, a wonderful game, full of skill, and measured in seconds and millimeter's....long periods of seeming inactivity, followed by bursts of the highest degree of athletic ability and capability...there is a similar tension. allow to explain....lets say "our team", pulls off a victory in the bottom of the ninth, a walk of home run, or a single hit to the outfield, etc...the whole stadium, just erupts in a joyous shout, right?

What I don't understand is, our Messiah, our Savior, who has provided VICTORY over sin, over the world, victory over death, victory over satan, and over rank wickedness.....we cant even shout for joy with the same passion we would at a ballpark, inside the assemblies?.....when an anointed exhorter, filled with the Holy Ghost, proclaims the GOSPEL, and the Glory of the Lord fills the assemblies, propelling those within, who walk to the altar, walk from death to LIFE....and we cant shout and celebrate with joy and passion?....because maybe its "not in us"....OR we're "afraid" of the reaction of others?!?....or we don't wish to be labeled as "disruptive"?

all I know is, whether in revival, or when God is REALLY moving in Power,and I see a whole bunch of sinners walking to the altar to do business and get right with God, i'll be shouting with JOY!!!......more so than I would be at any ballpark.

I know I been writing and testifying a lot here, but I beg your indulgence, I have a few more things to say; being a father of a son I love with passion and all my heart, has taught me a LOT, about the Heart of God, and how the Lord feels about you, me, all of us.

When he was 7 or 8, and Ted was preaching on the Cross, and God's love for us, I could see those terrible nails being pounded into my boys thin little wrists, and within mere seconds I could hardly see thru my tears, and in a rush, I realized God's love for us, His Only Son, offered as the Last Passover Lamb.........and I was shouting Praises to His Name.....and wondering. "Lord, at Golgotha, did you weep, when they started to crucify Your Son?"......then filled with remorse that my sin impelled God to do this in His Love and Mercy.....or when I had to discipline my son as a boy.....not to discipline him. MORE THAN HE BEAR....just as our Father, wont discipline us, more than we could bear....or how I wait for his phone calls, patient, as he's a young adult, 18....then when he does call, how my heart is filled with joy....is that way with God, as he waits patient for our prayers, or those times, when we just want to talk with Him?

God must love when we talk with Him, share with Him, telling him EVERYTHING.....because when I get those phonecalls from boy, patience, joy, and love fill my heart. How must it be with God? God doesn't "need" anything, He's entirely Sufficient...OBVIOUSLY....but when I finally shut the world down. tamp the flesh down, and get alone with Him, I surely must bring His Heart joy, because He brings me such joy, and blessings.....even though I have fallen short in so many ways.

i'll close now with this confession; I had a terrible horrible day. I am a broken and lonely man, and my family is falling apart, literally, they are scattered across the nation....but everythings a mess. its a public global forum, so its not wise to go into too much detail. My marriage ended in 2004 officially, and being God fearing, I never pursued another "wife"....how could I?

but a day like today, gets so bad, the personal news so terrible, I find myself LONGING to be with the Lord. i'm not talking about suicide, my brothers and sisters, because that is the ultimate selfish SIN...people that do that?....are so self consumed, they never think of the torn up souls of loved ones they leave behind...but on days like this, terrible days and nights, where sleep eludes me, I long to be with the Lord, casting off this tent of flesh, and God willing, joining innumerable worshipers in the New Jerusalem.

so I say, obviously part of following Jesus, who as prophesied in Isaiah, as the "Suffering Servant", is to suffer yourself. I don't mean to whine or be a crybaby, maybe I just your prayers..a whole lot.....at least my family does.

forgive this long post, bless you for reading it, and may God bless and protect all your families, as well as your dear hearts and souls. Grace, Peace and Mercy unto you all in Jesus' Name, neil

 2014/4/4 2:14
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Friends, we live by faith, we walk by faith, we see by faith, this is the sum total of everything we have been talking about.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2014/4/4 7:24Profile





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