Addis Ababa, Ethiopia
Ransom? It has more or less a meaning of payoff. To whom did Jesus pay?
| 2005/4/6 2:21||Profile|
| Re: RANSOM?|
I would look at it from a different angle,
in the physical sense when a ransom is paid with cash. for example when a kidnap has occured,the payment has [b]satisfied the requirements[/b] in the same way Christ satisfied the requirement as we where sold unto sin slaves to sin due to that old nature.
So i think you have to look at the word ransom in a different way
Christ also satisfies the whole requirement of the Father
there's lots of pictures and descriptions about the work of salvation in the scriptures.
So hope that opens the discussion for you.
what do you think?
I think the word payoff comes far to short in describeing Christ's work
pay off gives the impression that its a quick fix answer
The more i dwell on it the more i think... christ fully satisfied and laid down his own life,no greater love etc.... :-)
| 2005/4/6 4:12||Profile|
Mekdi, you have got my thoughts going :-)
the more i think about the word payoff the more it is so inadequate a way to link Christ's work.
payoff also conjures up pictures of secrecey and an exchange done in a isolated spot where no one is!
Christ made an open spectacle of the devil and powers making a open declaration very very public... what says you?
| 2005/4/6 5:05||Profile|
Addis Ababa, Ethiopia
Dear Delboy,What I mean actually is
hmmmm shall I put it in a phrase? To pay someone who holds a thing legally in order to take from him what the thing he holds or to give something in exchange. Youre right. Maybe the word payoff doesnt fit here. But the essence of what I want to bring to discussion here is- To whom did Christ pay inorder to free us?
| 2005/4/6 8:48||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Most interesting thought|
Here's a few more to chew on:
Exo 21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.
Exo 21:30 If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall [b]give for the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him[/b].
Exo 21:31 Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to this judgment shall it be done unto him.
Not to over spirtualize it but the comaparisons with:
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom* for many.
Still leaves out the '[b]to[/b]'
Joh 3:16 [b]For God[/b] so loved the world, that [b]he gave[/b] his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 [b]For God sent[/b] not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world [b]through him[/b] might be saved.
*[b]To give his life a ransom for many[/b] - The word ransom means literally a price paid for the redemption of captives. In war, when prisoners are taken by an enemy, the money demanded for their release is called a ransom; that is, it is the means by which they are set at liberty. So anything that releases anyone from a state of punishment, or suffering, or sin, is called a ransom. People are by nature captives to sin. They are sold under it. They are under condemnation, Eph_2:3; Rom_3:9-20, Rom_3:23; 1Jo_5:19. They are under a curse, Gal_3:10. They are in love with sin They are under its withering dominion, and are exposed to death eternal, Eze_18:4; Psa_9:17; Psa_11:6; Psa_68:2; Psa_139:19; Mat_25:46; Rom_2:6-9. They must have perished unless there had been some way by which they could he rescued. This was done by the death of Jesus - by giving his life a ransom. The meaning is, that he died in the place of sinners, and that God was willing to accept the pains of his death in the place of the eternal suffering of the redeemed. The reasons why such a ransom was necessary are:
1. that God had declared that the sinner shall die; that is, that he would punish, or show his hatred to, all sin.
2. that all people had sinned, and, if justice was to take its regular course, all must perish.
3. that man could make no atonement for his own sins. All that he could do, were he holy, would be only to do his duty, and would make no amends for the past. Repentance and future obedience would not blot away one sin.
4. No man was pure, and no angel could make atonement. God was pleased, therefore, to appoint his only-begotten Son to make such a ransom. See Joh_3:16; 1Jo_4:10; 1Pe_1:18-19; Rev_13:8; Joh_1:29; Eph_5:2; Heb_8:2-7; Isa_53:1-12; This is commonly called the atonement. See the notes at Rom_5:2.
| 2005/4/6 9:52||Profile|
Sorry to bring this up in C S Lewis's book peralandra the character is called Ransom
| 2005/4/6 10:03||Profile|
| Re: voyage to venus|
Hi deltadom, yes your right and what a great trilogy of books.I've recently re-read peralandra.I first read it donkeys years ago when my understanding was young.I must confess i really enjoyed it this time round
| 2005/4/6 10:36||Profile|
To whom did Christ pay inorder to free us?
I think Mike's points 1-4 are great...
But what do you think?
| 2005/4/6 10:42||Profile|
If you can get a hold of "the apostolic preaching of the cross" Leon Morris will take you through the word groups that are used to proclaim 'redemption'. It is a classic and should be in everyone's library!
| 2005/4/6 11:28||Profile|
| The atonement of Christ did not cause or create God's love.|
God in the exercise of His unselfish love, mercy and compassion went after the salvation of sinners. He did this by way of the birth, life, teachings and atoning death of Jesus Christ. The atonement of Christ did not cause or create God's love. It did not make God loving nor did it appease His anger. The atonement was the expression and result of God's preexisting love.
It is this love we must see. We should understand the suffering and death of Christ, but we need to see the love behind it that made it and caused it. The atonement was a result of God's love.
Deception occurs when some teach that the sufferings and work of Christ on the cross somehow appeased an angry God. They teach that the shed blood of Christ has soothed and calmed a vengeful God full of wrath. This is not true! God's infinite love was the source and cause of the atonement. God is not some bloodthirsty deity that needs appeasement by the shedding of blood.
Some think that when God sees blood it makes Him loving and forgiving. This is not true because He allowed poor people to bring fine flour as an acceptable sin offering. Lev. 5:11 "But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering."
Christ's blood was not a peace offering made to appease an angry God. The death of Christ on the cross intended to change man, not God. God had never changed. The blood was Christ's life. He freely poured out His life for sinners. Christ poured out His life to show man the nature of God's love and the crime of sin. The sinner is humbled by his guilt when he sees God's love.
The blood of Christ does not change God in any way. It does not cause Him to view sinners as obedient and holy. The real purpose of Christ's blood is to cause a heart realization in the sinner. Many are deceived. They believe the facts of the atonement. They believe Christ died for them but they have no heart realization of their personal guilt and responsibility for their sin! They remain unchanged in their chosen selfish state. They do not see that their selfishness has crucified Christ afresh. Christ freely died to reveal the fact of His love and their sin.
The blood of Christ is not magic. It by itself removes no sin. Christ's death saves no one. The atonement is only a method that God used to show His love and make salvation possible. A sinner needs to be broken and humbled by first seeing his own guilt and then how Christ freely gave up His life for him. With a repentant heart he will throw himself down at God's feet for mercy. Christ sets the sinner free from selfishness when he truly repents.
Without this heart realization God cannot forgive any sinner. God's interest in a person goes beyond him just believing in the facts of the atonement.
Many know the facts of Christ's death but remain sinners. The sinner must realize the horrible crime of his sin before God will forgive him. If the love of God displayed and expressed in the atonement does not conquer the sinner's selfishness then it is hopeless for him. Nothing else can accomplish this and the sinner will remain selfish.
Another area of deception is the teaching that Christ paid for all sin. Christ did not pay God or anyone for man's sin. The work on the cross was not some type of commercial transaction. A debt is only satisfied after making payment or when forgiven. An example of a debt is if you had borrowed $50 from someone. This person now has genuine claim against you. Now let's say for some reason you become unwilling or unable to pay back this debt and another person pays the debt for you. This satisfies the claim against you and removes your obligation. This involves no forgiveness or pardon.
If on the other hand no one pays the debt and you are released from your obligation, then you are forgiven. Forgiveness is the relaxation of a genuine claim. It is impossible to have any genuine claim both satisfied and forgiven.
If Christ truly made payment for all sin then:
1. God could never forgive man because a debt paid is a satisfied debt and excludes forgiveness.
2. All sinners would go to heaven because Christ paid for all sin.
3. Christ's love is greater than God's because Christ suffered to satisfy an unforgiving Father.
4. If Christ only made payment for those who receive him, then all future personal obedience is no longer necessary for these.
5. One could break the law, without being truly guilty.
Many believe that the atonement shields a person from the penalty of hell while he continues to break the law. This is totally untrue. The true Christian loves God and keeps His laws. He is not living any more in a supremely selfish state. He is now obedient and conformed to God. He is only saved from the penalty while he remains this way.
The gospel intends to bring man into personal obedience to God and the law. The atonement does not release anyone from present or future obligation to the law. God does not look at man through Christ's blood and somehow see rebellious criminals, holy and obedient. God does not accept imperfect obedience as genuine.
There was no literal payment made by Christ. The scriptures that seem to suggest that He paid for sin are not literal. They are figurative and metaphors. They point to Christ providing a way to set aside the execution of the penalty when a person meets the conditions of the gospel. He opened a way for all in which they might have forgiveness. Instead of paying a debt He displayed God's respect for the law and certainty to support it. He showed God's hatred of sin and His love for holiness.
Christ suffered about five or six hours. He never felt any remorse or guilt because he was not guilty. The sufferings of Christ were substituted for the punishment of sinners. These sufferings accomplished the same purpose and goal, which would have been accomplished by all sinners going to hell. This made a greater impact than the literal execution of sinners ever could have.
Christ's death by itself saves no one. The atonement removes all but one remaining barrier before man can have a right relationship with God. Now each person must come to God in repentance and faith to remove the final obstacle to salvation. If a sinner refuses to obey and dies, God will treat him as if the atonement did not exist. God only pardons repentant sinners and sets them free from the penalty of sin and death. It did cost Him and God a great deal. Salvation is not cheap. A sinner, when truly seeing his own rebellion and the love of God shown and expressed in the atonement, will break down and repent. He will cease rebelling and will become obedient. This is the effect of true gospel preaching.
Some teach that Christ was punished. He did not suffer the penalty of the law. The law had no claim or demand against Christ. The law can only make demands against the offender. God did not punish nor discipline Christ for sin or for any other reason. Christ was sinless and suffered without being guilty of anything. God did not make him guilty nor was any guilt transferred to Him. Punishment implies guilt and is completely involuntary. Christ's sufferings were willfully and voluntarily chosen.
Punishment must exist because it expresses the law is valuable and violation of the law is evil. Punishment does not reform nor can it ever reform any sinner. Punishment will never make any person's moral character better. No amount of punishment will ever make a sinner less guilty. Punishment is not disciplinary in its nature. Reformation in hell is impossible. The design of punishment is not for revenge or vengeance. It exists because sin deserves such an expression.
The sinner is a criminal and truly deserves the punishment of hell forever. The infliction of the penalty on the sinner is always just, proper, fair and right. God gets no pleasure or satisfaction in sending a sinner to hell. God is heartbroken and grieved but the sinner must get what he truly deserves.
The execution of the penalty shows God's intense hatred for sin and His respect for the law. It also shows His great desire for obedience and happiness in this world. Any plan to drop the need of this awful execution must also express God's thoughts and desires. He has done this by the suffering death of His only Son.
Deception also occurs when a person teaches that Christ satisfied the law for mankind. No person, even Christ, can love God with more than all his heart. Christ could never obey beyond or above the law's requirements. Christ's obedience could never be credited or transferred to any person's account. He had to fulfill the law for Himself. If He had disobeyed, He would have been guilty.
God cannot accept any being's obedience for another. A person's obedience can never replace another person's disobedience. It is impossible. No obedience of Christ could ever remove or set aside the law's claim against the sinner. The obedience of Christ is not enough to remove any of the obstacles that made the atonement necessary.
If this teaching was true, then the following statements are true.
1. Christ's obedience would have satisfied the law. He would not have needed to suffer and die for the sins of the world.
2. Without law, obligation would disappear. God could not require repentance, faith or any obedience. All would go to heaven.
3. Sinners would have a legal claim for salvation and could justly demand it. Grace and mercy could not exist.
The purpose of the atonement was not to save us from hell in our disobedience. It was to save us from our sins and bring us back into a love relationship with God. God has made a way possible for man to come to Him and enjoy freedom of sin. Now each person must make a decision on whether he enters this freedom or not.
Some teach that the atonement was just for a few, not for everyone. This teaching is wrong for the following reasons:
1. This teaching goes against the character of God. He has provided salvation for everyone.
Tim. 2:3,4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."
I John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
2. No one could exercise faith without truly knowing whether the atonement included him or not. How can a person repent knowing there is only a chance that Christ died for him?
3. God commands all men to repent under the penalty of death. Acts 17:30b "but now commandeth all men every where to repent."
4. God does not give impossible commands.
| 2005/4/6 18:21|