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Joined: 2012/3/12
Posts: 87

 Re: Once Saved Always Saved ?

Once saved always saved isnt a Bible doctrine . Just one verse is enough to show this :

I cor.9:27: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

If the great apostle Paul may fail to get into heaven after he been saved there is certainly no guarantee to any of us from God that our names will not be removed from the Book of Life .. Many more of scriptures can be given but this should suffice

 2014/2/8 1:58Profile

Joined: 2009/1/11
Posts: 77

 Re: once saved always saved

I agree with KPYee, there are many scriptures that make it clear I believe that this doctrine is false.
The issue I believe with these sort of things is people staring with a doctrine and then findimg scriptures to affirm it rather than starting with scripture.
Paul mentions believers who fall away.
Also in writing to believers he said "if you live according to the flesh you will die"
The truth is that there is a balance as I think budgie mentioned, God is faithful to keep us to the end but we must continue in faith and hope - see the first chapter of Colossians.

Andrew Wales

 2014/2/18 22:12Profile

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2091

 Re: perseverance


If you're interested, the following link is good reading on the subject. The booklet is free for the asking.
It's entitled, "Assurance and Perseverance."

Excerpt -

I will be their God, of Mine own mere motion and grace, and according to the good pleasure of Mine own will, and they shall be My people. My will shall make them willing in the day of My power: for I will work in them both to will and to
do; yea, I will be a Father unto them, and they shall be My sons and daughters,saith the Lord Almighty.

The word Father relates to His children, and expresses the unchangeable love of His heart towards them; it is a dear covenant name,and denotes the inseparable connection between Him and His children; whenever they hear it, it should always excite in them an idea of His everlasting affection.

He loves His family as a Father, and loves everyone of them with the same almighty love. He cannot change. He cannot cease to be a Father, and they cannot cease to be His children. His name is a security to them, that they cannot
perish, for if one of them could, they all might. And then His covenant purpose to bring many sons unto glory would be defeated, His relation to them as a Father would be broken, He would be a Father without children, He would deny them the promised blessings, He would forget to be gracious to them, His will concerning them would change, or would be over-ruled by some opposite will, and His great plan in the covenant would come to nothing. But these things cannot possibly be.

He is the Father of His children, and He has engaged,by promise and oath, to love, to bless, and to keep them for ever. Out of perfect love He gave them to His Son, who undertook to be their Saviour; He came and was made man, Jehovah incarnate, to live and die for them. He was so delighted with them (for He has all their names written in His book), and with the work,that He was straitened till it was accomplished. Blessings on Him for ever! it is
finished. The royal Saviour is upon the throne, almighty to save His dear redeemed. He would lose His name, which is above every name, the honours of His salvation would fade away upon His head, and the glories of His offic e s
would come to nothing, if one, whom Jesus lived and died to save, should perish.

But it is not possible.Whom He loves, He loves unto the end. “I give unto them,” says He,”eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of My hand.” They are His seed, and it was covenanted that He should see His seed. They are the travail of His soul, and He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied. How can He be satisfied, if any one of them
should be lost? He prayed, “Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are One.” And the Father always heard Him. He prayed that they might be with Him where He is,
to see His glory: and the Holy Spirit covenanted to bring them to it—He undertook,as His name, Spirit, imports, to breathe life into them, to call, to convert them, to keep them, and to give them everything needful for their spiritual life.

How can they fail of coming to glory, being thus kept for it by the power of God? The Holy Spirit would lose His name, Spirit, or breath of life, and His offic e ,
which is to abide with, and to dwell for ever in, the elect people of God, if any one of them should die from God, and perish. Thus there is full security given by the names and offices of the Trinity, that believers shall be kept from falling away. The Father cannot be without His children. The glory of Jesus would fade away if one of His redeemed was plucked out of His hand. The divine honours of the Spirit of life would be eclipsed if He was to forsake His charge, and suffer any of the redeemed to fall into hell. But these things cannot be. The will of the Father, Son, and Spirit is the same concerning the salvation of the elect,which is as secure as covenant bonds and oaths can make it. - WILLIAM ROMAINE

 2014/2/19 3:56Profile

Joined: 2009/1/11
Posts: 77

 Re: Savannah

God will keep us and bring to completion the work He began in us and noone can pluck us from His hand.
But there is a balancing side in scripture and this is our side of continuing in faith.
Col 1:22-23a
But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation - if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out to you in the gospel.
It in no way lessens our Father's greatness that some should leave Him. Though indeed incredibly sad.
Rawhide I encourage you as with all take the whole scripture as it is. Build yourself up in our most holy faith.
Be encouraged and encourage others :-)

Andrew Wales

 2014/2/19 8:02Profile

Joined: 2009/1/11
Posts: 77


Andrew Wales

 2014/2/19 8:03Profile

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2091

 Re: perseverance

God does not give, and then take away. He does indeed frequently take away what He only lent; such as health,
riches, friends, and other temporal comforts: but what He gives, He gives forever.In a way of grace, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (Rom 11:29). He will never repent of bestowing them, and every attribute He
has forbids Him to revoke them (Luke 10:42). In Hebrews 13:5, He says, “I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.” And in John 10:27-28, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them and they follow Me; and I give unto them eternal
life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of My hand.” ‘True,’ said an Arminian schismatic, ‘Christ’s sheep cannot be plucked forcibly out of His hand by others; but they themselves may slip through His hands, and so fall into hell and be eternally lost.’ They may slip, may they? As if the Mediator in pre s e rving His people, held only a parcel of eels by the tail!
Is not this a shameless way of slipping through a plain text of Scripture? I would fain ask the slippery sophister how we are to understand that part of the passage that expressly declares concerning Christ’s people, that they shall never perish, since perish they necessarily must and certainly would, if eventually separated from Christ; whether they were to be plucked out of His hands, or whether they were only to slip thru them. I conclude then that the promise made to the saints, that they shall never perish, secures them equally against the possibility of being either wrested from Christ’s hand or of their
falling from it: since, could one or the other be the case, perish they must,and Christ’s promise would fall to the ground. - A. Toplady

I encourage you to read what I have linked. You will find great balance on this subject as you read.

 2014/2/20 3:08Profile

Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266

 Re: Value of who Jesus is and what He has done

Scripture declares the Faithfulness of God and His Son in the Old Testament as well as the new Testament, there is no failure on the part of the Godhead.
No matter what happens in life God and His Sacrifice is complete and perfect.

Only God knows our heart, His gift to us never changes but what is in our heart does, the Old Testament is full of Gods Faithfulness but it also shows the wickedness of mans heart and there are many who have turned from the Living God for their own wicked desires, this does not change what God has done but it does reveal the lack of value that man may have towards God.
The New Testament is no different, it is full of Christs Faithfulness but it also reveals many who have turned away from the Face of Jesus.

Hebrews is a brilliant book that speaks of the Faithfulness of Christ and of God His Father, it also speaks greatly of those great men of God who continued Trusting all their Life.

Hebrews states that we as a Church or a body of believers must look at all of the Old Testament and learn by their errors, Hebrews warns us to walk one day at a time and to not let our hearts be hardened, to not fall into disbelief.
Paul speaks of not letting our hearts be seared by sin.

Hebrews very clearly states that we should value what Jesus Christ has done for us and if we don't value His Death on the Cross and we continuously keep on sinning wilfully, we are in fact denying the death of Christ and we are in actual fact nailing Him back on the Cross all over again.

As Hebrews states and so does Paul in many areas, let us judge ourselves, let us search our own hearts, let us always see Christ on the Cross.
Pauls whole desire was to preach Christ crucified, why? because that way whenever sin is at the door, Paul would see Christs sacrifice on the Cross.

Before Resurrection comes death, Paul wants us all to die to self so that Jesus Christ Resurrection Power may be manifest in us.
Let us always value what Jesus has done for us and Live in Him in intimacy one day at a time.

Jesus said that there will be those that cry out, to Him saying that I cast out demons in your name, I did miracles in your name but He says I never knew you depart from me you workers of iniquity

Please I plead with all, draw close to Jesus, do not harden your hearts, value His Sacrifice, we have all been bought with a price and that price was the heart of God and the Blood of Christ.

Lets all keep the Faith in balance, God will always keep His part, all we need to do is to die to ourselves and continue trusting, a seed must die before new life comes so it is with our trust in Christ.

Praise God for His Faithfulness.

 2014/2/22 21:38Profile

Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


Something to think about when it comes to perseverance.
When Christ came to Earth the first time, the choice His followers had was to forsake all and follow Him.

When the Church first began the choice was to forsake the majority, to forsake your life and accept Christ as the Anointed Saviour and then be crucified, or burned in oil, or have your head cut off and Gain Eternal Life.

The choices believers have today in North Korea, Iran and China is to deny Christ and live with the majority, or accept Christ and be beheaded, or thrown in jail, or run over by a roller.
Or accept Christ and watch your children, or parents, or grandparents be hanged.

The truth is today in our free countries, would we accept Christ and watch our children be hanged or would we try and save our own lives and the lives of our children and deny Jesus.

A very difficult and challenging question, but it is happening today in many places and it is on the increase.
We in the free countries are offended by what others say and we think it is life threatening as if all is based on what others think of us.

I work in a place where each week someone tries to take their life, a place full of people molested at a young age, raped,they have watched their parents and family murdered, they have no life, yet when the Gospel hits their heart and they come crashing to their knees, these prisoners choose against the majority and choose to have a Life of Freedom in Christ Jesus even though they are in prison for another 20 years they are free.

Is our Gospel still the same as when it first began, the Gospel of Life within and Eternity in God, a life surrendered so that Christ may live in us or is it a fleshly gospel that you can have all you want and never have to fully surrender your life.

Is our gospel the same no matter what place and what country?

If we will lay down all and humble ourselves Christ will exalt us.
Pray for the Lost, Love the Lost, be a Light to the Lost, be a Hand for the lost, be Christ for the Lost and give someone Life within.
Peace comes when the authority that causes chaos in someones life is destroyed, Jesus destroys all chaos and His Peace is Life.

The question I ask all as well as myself is am I willing to see death so that I may have Life????
Offenses may come but let Jesus have sovereignty.

Let us persevere in trusting Jesus no matter what comes our way, He will equip us at the time.

 2014/2/23 23:33Profile

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2091

 Re: Our Covenant God

The covenant of grace doth not run, “I will be your God if you will be my people;” but “I will be their God, and they shall be my people” (Hos. 2:19, &c.) “I will betroth thee to me forever; I, will say, Thou art my people, and they shall say, Thou art my God.” His everlasting purpose is, to write his laws in the hearts of the elect. He puts a condition to his covenant of grace, the condition of faith, and he resolves to work that condition in the hearts of the elect; and, therefore,believers have two immutable pillars for their support, stronger than those erected by Solomon at the porch of the temple (1 Kings 7:21), called Jakin and Boaz, to note the firmness of that building dedicated to God; these are election, or the standing. counsel of God, and the covenant of grace. He will not revoke the covenant, and blot the names of his elect out of the book of life.

Perseverance is ascertained. It consists not with the majesty of God to call a person effectually to himself to-day, to make him fit for his eternal love, to give him faith, and take away that faith to-morrow.
His effectual call is the fruit of his eternal election, and that counsel hath no other foundation but his constant and unchangeable will; a foundation that stands sure, and, therefore, called the foundation of God, and not of the creature; “the foundation of God stands sure, the Lord knows who are his” (2 Tim.2:19). It is not founded upon our own natural strength; it may be then subject to change, as all the products of nature are.

To what purpose doth our Saviour tell his disciples their names “were written in heaven” (Luke 10:20), but to mark the infallible certainty of their salvation by an opposition to those things which perish, and have their “names written in the earth” (Jer.17:23); or upon the sand, where they may be defaced? And why should Christ order his disciples to rejoice that their names were written in heaven, if God were changeable to blot them out again? or why should the apostle assure us, that though God had rejected the greatest part of the Jews, he had not,
therefore, rejected his people elected according to his purpose and immutable counsel; because there are none of the elect of God but will come to salvation? For, saith he, the “election hath obtained it” (Rom.11:7); that is, all those that are of the election have obtained it, and the others are hardened.

Where the seal of sanctification is stamped, it is a testimony of God’s election, and that foundation shall stand sure:“The foundation of the Lord stands sure, having this seal, the Lord knows who are his;” that is the
foundation, the “naming the name of Christ,” or believing in Christ, and “departing from iniquity,” is the seal. As it is impossible when God calls those things that are not, but that they should spring up into being and appear before him; so it is impossible but that the seed of God, by his eternal purpose, should be brought to a spiritual life, and that calling cannot be retracted; for that “gift and calling is without repentance” (Rom. 11:29).

Hence their happiness is not as patents among men, so long as they behave themselves well; but they have a promise that they shall behave themselves so as never wholly to depart from God (Jer. 32:40): “I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them to do them good, but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.” God will not turn from them, to do them good, and promiseth that they shall not turn from him forever, or forsake him. And the bottom of it is the everlasting covenant, and, therefore,believing and sealing for security are linked together (Eph. 1:13). And when God doth inwardly teach us his law, he puts in a will not to depart from it: (Psalm 119:102) “I have not departed from thy judgments;”what is the reason? “For thou hast taught me.” - Charnock

 2014/2/24 0:01Profile

Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


As per rawhides first question regarding this thread
When reding the letters to the seven churches in revelation it is very interesting to see that the rewards or judgements are very much based on our works in the flesh
There is an emphasis on the importance of repentance
If we don't do what jesus asks then there is a loss
If we do what he asks then there is a reward
May we all seek christ and be obedient to his desires
May the fruit and sacrifice that we present be pleasing to him and bring honor to him
If we dont repent and do his commands we suffer great loss expecially his rewards
May he find true faith
May we not be found naked

 2014/2/27 18:05Profile

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