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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : once justified, always justified?

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Joined: 2005/5/7
Posts: 175



If He won't blot it out if they would overcome, then that means that He was going to if they did not. i think that this is as clear a scripture as any, from the mouth of our Lord Himself, clearly stating that if one does not overcome, his name will be blotted out of the Book of Life. If it can be blotted out, that means it was in there at one point. This verse also touches on predestination... think about it for a while.

Good point.


 2007/5/14 22:55Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


Who is the one that overcometh?

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

The birthing of Jesus Christ in the believer is the One that overcame and is still overcoming in all believers and they are the ones that are overcoming the world.

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of

Who gives us ears to hear? John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Who is the Tree of Life? Wisdom;
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Who is He that overcometh? Jesus Christ in you the "Hope of Glory".

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].

Who is the hidden Manna? "eat my flesh and drink my blood"

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Who's Works?

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Who overcame and who overcomes in Christ and sits with Christ in the Heavenly Places?
Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

We don't overcome. It is the Christ in us that overcomes by His birth of Incorruptable Seed of God the Father, that Seed is the Word of God.
Who is the Word of God?

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Who has overcome? Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

In Who? Christ.

In Christ: Phillip


 2007/5/15 2:25Profile

Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Justified is not getting through!!!

I am placing this on it's own thread, as I think the question must be explored not by justification, but in the sense of grace, since obviously, despite the many posts on the other thread, it just not getting through.

Justification is what happened to us by Christ's actions on the cross. But grace by faith is a gift.


staff wrote:
.... but below is just your own personal belief their is as much arguement for "once saved always saved "as to the arguement of you can lose your're salvation...I am not saying that sinning has no consequences,nor I am saying that you can't lose rewards but I am saying "where sin abounds grace abounds even more" and it takes alot to lose your're salvation if at all possible.
rgds staff

Dear Staff,

Once saved, always saved, is true for those that move forward in the Holy Spirit, growing in grace, and ripening into spiritual maturity.

But that Grace is very easily lost.

[color=993300]Romans 2
1. Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
[u]5. But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;[/u]
6. Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9. Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11. For there is no respect of persons with God.
12. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13. (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.[/color]

Grace alone saves us through Jesus Christ, but alas, it is so easy to become complacent, and to stop walking in faith.

At that point, one become particularly vulnerable to the Evil One, who with lies and temptations, will seek to turn the complacent away from their first love of Jesus.

And one cannot stand still even in grace. Unless one walks forward, strengthening the faith walk, and growing in gifts of the Holy Spirit, and reaping the fruit there of, in patience, kindness, humility, endurance, joy and love, sowing into other lives what has been sown into yours, you become on the the foolish virgins, the unprofitable servent, cast into utter darkness, and judged and found wanting at the end of the Tribulation.

[color=993300]Matthew 25
1. Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4. But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
14. For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19. After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25. And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27. Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36. Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38. When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39. Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40. And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45. Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

It is not enough to be saved, and live under grace. Yes, there are only the laws of love to follow, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to obtain, and use, to the glory of God.

But once you stand still in Jesus, you are in grave danger.

Yes, it may be possible to still receive one's salvation and do nothing over and above what Christ has done, for all our righteousness is in Him.

But the moment one stops going forward, you become prey for the one that seeks to devour you.
The devil is wise in the way of decit, and confusion. And oh, how easy it is to be turned around in your path, and find yourself, convinced that grace will save you, as you walk farther and farther away from Jesus.

And if you turn your back on the Lord, not in the foolish innocence of the newly born in Christ, but of the self satisfied Laodicean Church, who believes they are forever safe, no matter that they only worship themselves and their desires, are they not at risk of grieving the Holy Spirit away completely, and having their consciences seared?

Even pastors and teachers can lead people astray, else the state of the Christian Church in America would not be crumbling. And those that do not seek their Bibles early and often, who do not pray, who do not seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the protection of God and His angels, can they not go beyond grace into depravity?

Do not speak from opinion only, but search the scriptures.

And believe me, I would be delighted to be proved wrong.



Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/15 4:52Profile

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK


I think the confusion comes from teachings on Entire Sanctification and others that seem to equate sanctification with sinlessness. But what I understand of your view Ron is that we are instantly set apart to God as His possession when we are born again.

This is an area where is it easy to agree with the words used but where on careful examination the words are being understood somewhat differently.

Personally, I do not preach second-blessing holiness. I believe in it in the sense that I know many who have experienced a crisis experience subsequent to their initial encounter with God, but I don't preach it as a route-map.

My definition of regeneration and its consequence in sanctification shares some common ground with the Calvinists in that I see it as a comprehensive transformation from death to life. However it differs from the Calvinists in that I see many possible steps including repentance and genuine faith as prerequisites of regeneration rather than its consequence.

If you take the general concepts of regeneration and sanctification as taught by classical holiness movements like the Methodists and the Salvation Army and merge them into one concept you have what I mean when I talk about regeneration.

For several generations now evangelical Christianity has adopted a model of 'regeneration' in which 'decision' is equated with 'regeneration'. It incorporates a whole methodology of getting people to that decision which I don't think has any kind of biblical basis. We then have people who have 'decided' who subsequently have a much deeper experience of God which they variously label as 'making Jesus Lord' or 'sanctification' or 'baptism in the Spirit'.

We have narrowed 'the beginning' to single points in time whereas 'the beginning' can sometimes embrace a considerable period of time and many separate experiences of God. I notice, for example, that Peter refers to 'the beginning' in...“And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.” (Acts 11:15 KJVS)...but he is not referring to his calling from his nets but to his receiving of the Spirit. The events which led up to this are also part of the beginning. I am reminded of Churchill's famous speech before at Lord Mayor's Luncheon, Mansion House following the victory at El Alameinin North Africa, London, 10 November 1942, "This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." I see the conscious receiving of the Holy Spirit as 'not the end' and 'not the beginning of the end' but.. as the 'end of the beginning'.

I do not see how anyone can be regenerated without receiving the 'Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus' so I see regeneration, sanctification and baptism-in-Spirit as simultaneous terms. Please notice I do not say equivalent or synonymous.

I believe in a beginning which is a genuine new start in which 'old things are passed away and all things become new' but I believe even the new has to be renewed...“and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:” (Colossians 3:10 ASV) The ASV here captures the ongoing renewing process of ever increasing likeness to 'the image of him'.

I see too that genuine New Testament salvation is the outcome of the crisis of regeneration AND the process of this renewing...“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” (Titus 3:5 KJVS)...and this I see not as two separate events but one event which has a beginning and a continuation.

Does that make my view clearer or more obscure? ;-)

Ron Bailey

 2007/5/15 6:33Profile


Once saved, always saved, is true for those that move forward in the Holy Spirit, growing in grace, and ripening into spiritual maturity.

First of all I personally do not like the phrase "once saved, always saved." I think it focuses too much on just avoiding hell, and not on the purposes of God.

God told Israel He was bringing them out of Egypt to bring them into their inheritance (the promise) He brought them out of bondage to bring them into the Promised Land.

So to with us, the scripture says, that God's purpose is to conform us into the image of His Son. He delivered us from bondage so that we might be partakers of the heavenly nature...that we might know Him and be changed into His image.

And God says He will use EVERYTHING in order to accomplish His purpose in us. Everything!

So UniqueRev, if we come from that perspective, than I have a couple of honest questions/ comments:

Are we not dead in our sins, children of wrath, children of the devil, enemies of God, under the wrath of God, condemned, separated from the Holy Spirit, dead on the vine, etc....before we are justified.

Is that not our state when God comes to us and delivers us from our bondage?

It seems as though, unbelievers (children of the devil, who are enemies of God) are better off than believers. They can be and do anything and God will extend mercy to them, but if you actually get saved and become His child, then are in trouble and you better make sure you are "moving forward" in Him.

For the unbeliever, it seems as though God will use anything in order to bring that individual to Himself...failure, Sin, apathy, God uses all these negative things in order to bring unbelievers to Himself, but if you get saved then all these things will cut you off from God. I don't get it.

I am not saying that we can just live however we want, but I am saying that God is greater than all of our sin and flesh. Our flesh. Our sin nature does not go away onced we are saved. That corrupt nature that cut us off from God still abides within, but because of the Cross, God counts it CRUCIFIED. But the hellish nature is still there.

UniqueRev, what would cut you off of from the Grace of God that is in Christ Jesus. Personally, what thing would finally cut you off from Him?

I can testify that God has used everything in my life to draw me closer to confusion, my sin (yes my sin), my apathy, my anger, my failures, my fears, .....

Honestly, that's all I bring to this relationship. If I have a victory, its His victory.

His Grace is greater than all our sin. All of it!

 2007/5/15 6:47



KingJimmy wrote:
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God... Man has no natural ability in and of himself to express a saving faith in Christ. The word of God that is preached, however, enables man to take God at His word and believe the gospel. Apart from the enabling power that comes from the word of God, man cannot believe. The word of God that is preached is the work that produces the ability to have faith.

And with this knowledge, one doesn't have to thump KJV only type positions in regard to Galatians. The ability to have faith is supernaturally imparted through the preaching of the word of God.

I have heard that many times in my life only to find out through being born again that it means the word to be THE WORD; Jesus Christ Himself by the Holy Ghost.

The development of my faith in Christ must produce His Faith in me unto an unwavering union.

That is why the rendering of the verse Gal.2.20 KJV is so vitally important here. Paul is stating it is by the very life [b]of[/b] the Son of God he lives by. It is by the very life [b]of[/b] the Son of God that Faith, HIS Faith comes, and by the hearing of it within him. This is the intimacy Father is after from those who claim His name.
This is beyond having faith in the Son of God and a direct result of it. Jesus enters and makes His abode. One learns to step out into life with HIS Faith; HIS Life.

Other translations don't pick up on most of these seemingly insignificant points to explain them but rather slant them to a particular bent. Reader beware!
I use several in my study and have noticed much elseware in scripture where one should make distinctions by comparing to the KJV as well. By doing so one will learn to read the KJV as easily as the NIV, eating more meat and less potatoes.

 2007/5/15 6:51


Speaking of beginnings I like this from "My Utmost for His Highest"

[b]After obedience—what?[/b]

And straightway He constrained His disciples to get into the ship, and to go to the other side. . . . Mark 6:45-52.

We are apt to imagine that if Jesus Christ constrains us, and we obey Him, He will lead us to great success. We must never put our dreams of success as God’s purpose for us; His purpose may be exactly the opposite. We have an idea that God is leading us to a particular end, a desired goal; He is not. The question of getting to a particular end is a mere incident. [b]What we call the process, God calls the end.[/b]

What is my dream of God’s purpose? His purpose is that I depend on Him and on His power now. If I can stay in the middle of the turmoil calm and unperplexed, that is the end of the purpose of God. God is not working towards a particular finish; His end is the process—that I see Him walking on the waves, no shore in sight, no success, no goal, just the absolute certainty that it is all right because I see Him walking on the sea. It is the process, not the end, which is glorifying to God.

God’s training is for now, not presently. His purpose is for this minute, not for something in the future. We have nothing to do with the afterwards of obedience; we get wrong when we think of the afterwards. [b]What men call training and preparation, God calls the end.[/b]

God’s end is to enable me to see that He can walk on the chaos of my life just now. If we have a further end in view, we do not pay sufficient attention to the immediate present; but if we realize that obedience is the end, then each moment as it comes is precious.

Chambers, Oswald: My Utmost for His Highest : Selections for the Year. Grand Rapids, MI : Discovery House Publishers, 1993, c1935, S. July 28

 2007/5/15 7:17

Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 119
Iowa, USA


Hey Christinyou,

i appreciate your thoughts, but i still can't agree... you see, in the grammerical sense, Christ is not referring to Himself in those verses in Revelation, if yout ake it in the context, He is speaking about the believers, not Himself. i'm not saying that it is by our strength, NOT AT ALL. i am a firm beliver and practicer of abiding in Christ, and relying on Him for my every need, etc. Just ask anyone who knows me :-)

But we have to make the choices every day to "walk in the Spirit" and not to "Fullfill the lusts of the flesh" It is our own choice, but once we have chosen to submit to God's will, then He can pour the power of His Spirit throught us.

To say that Christ is talking of Himself in the verse in Revelation there is to be contexturally incorrect, and also opens the door for weaker believers (note, i didn't say ALL) to give into the flesh and excuse it by saying "Well, Christ isn't giving me strength sufficient for this tempation" and there by "falling from grace" and concerning the faith have "made shipwreck".

Let's be careful to not use other scriptures to change the context of one verse... remember:

"Cain slew his brother able... go and do thou likewise" !!! :-? :-? :-? :-o :-o :-o Totally scripture, but TOTALLY out of context!!


God bless.


 2007/5/15 8:17Profile

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri


Ron's: Does that make my view clearer or more obscure?

I don't know it reminds me of the story you said of the Daffodils; "At that price it's hardly worth not buying any." (Or something to that effect). :-P

I am understanding you to say that a person may go through a series of steps to come to genuine regeneration. Just like the Disciples walked with the Lord and had not yet known the Baptism in the Spirit. They would have been justified at this point because they followed Him by faith. But when He ascended and the Spirit came they were regenerated + sanctified + baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit. This experience would transform them into new creatures. The old passed away and all became new at this point. From there on it was up to them to continually seek the Lord by faith for ongoing infillings. The ongoing infillings would have continually refined and refreshed them into the image of Christ. How is that? 8-)

Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/15 8:42Profile



RobertW wrote:
Ron's: Does that make my view clearer or more obscure?

I don't know it reminds me of the story you said of the Daffodils; "At that price it's hardly worth not buying any." (Or something to that effect). :-P

I am understanding you to say that a person may go through a series of steps to come to genuine regeneration. Just like the Disciples walked with the Lord and had not yet known the Baptism in the Spirit. They would have been justified at this point because they followed Him by faith. But when He ascended and the Spirit came they were regenerated + sanctified + baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit. This experience would transform them into new creatures. The old passed away and all became new at this point. From there on it was up to them to continually seek the Lord by faith for ongoing infillings. The ongoing infillings would have continually refined and refreshed them into the image of Christ. How is that? 8-)

Can it be reconciled with this passage:

John 20:22-23 (KJV) And when he had said this, [b]he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost[/b] Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Keep in mind, this was before He ascended into Heaven and is likenned to what God originally did when He created Adam. "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and [b]breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;[/b] and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

"This is what Scripture says: “The first man, Adam, became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." 1 Corinthians 15:45

In this can be seen that: "because the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death." Romans 8:2

 2007/5/15 8:54

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