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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Holy Spirit transforms us through the renewal of our mind. Zac Poonen

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Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

In short this is what we agree on Conscience is integral part of Heart. To an unregenerate man conscience is set according to moral law. But when we are born again we get a clear conscience (new Heart Ezekiel 36:26) and the Holy Spirit speaks to us through our conscience (1 John 3-21), that is why in 1 John 3-21, John says that our heart will convict us (us means all born again believers who have the Holy Spirit). The sins which our conscience stopped convicting us long back becomes painful when we commit them after we are born again, irrespective of whether we had the 2nd death or not. Our conscience does not remain the same hard one after we are born again. As a person who has experienced 2nd death, it is death to self (brokenness) that leads to empowerment of the spirit. The conviction still remains same, but empowerment comes to act according to the conviction of spirit. The will to sin still remains same because I still live in the same flesh. But power comes to overcome the self will.

Now the things we disagree is, your statement that Mind and Heart are same. No they are not, it is contradicting to believe that conscience is part of heart and Heart is same as my mind. No they are different. The following scriptures prove that heart and mind are not the same.

Mark 12:30 :-And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment.

Romans 8:27:-And he that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

My understanding is scriptural and based on self experience.

Quote:

Evil coming out of our flesh is a gnostic statement, but it’s because you’re mixing everything up. Think of it this way after regeneration you spirit comes alive to God – however your heart (soul – mind (conscience), will and emotions are not fully yielded to God and his will, when the Holy Spirit speaks to our spirit and leads us to do certain things we rebel and fight against the Holy Spirit.



Romans 8: 3 to 7 clearly talks about the effect of flesh that corrupts man even after he is born again. The mind is not powerful enough to listen to the Spirit speaking through Conscience. His mind still listens to flesh and that is why he sins. Now 2nd death empowers him to set his mind on the needs of the Spirit rather than flesh. The mind still remains same and conviction of Conscience remains the same. In Romans 7 Paul is talking about a believer without this empowerment, he wants to do good (Romans 7:21) but he cannot as he is not having power to overcome his Flesh.

For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, HE CONDEMNED SIN IN the FLESH, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their MINDS on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the MIND set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

I think I have said enough here, I gracefully back out of this discussion.


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Sreeram

 2013/12/11 1:22Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Now the things we disagree is, your statement that Mind and Heart are same. No they are not, it is contradicting to believe that conscience is part of heart and Heart is same as my mind. No they are different. The following scriptures prove that heart and mind are not the same.

Well I am glad that we can agree on something – it’s a pity you’re going to back off from this conversation.

I looked up the word heart, soul and mind in the Strongs concordance from verse Mark 12:30, that word

kardia - G2588 the heart - that organ in the animal body which is the centre of the circulation of the blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life - denotes the centre of all physical and spiritual life
the vigour and sense of physical life - the centre and seat of spiritual life - the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours - of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence - of the will and character - of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions - of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate.

psyche – G5590 Soul – breath - the breath of life - the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing of animals - of men – life - that in which there is life - a living being, a living soul - the soul - the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.) - the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal - blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life - the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

dianoia - G1271 Mind - the mind as a faculty of understanding, feeling, desiring - understanding
mind, i.e. spirit, way of thinking and feeling - thoughts, either good or bad

All these words are describing the same thing, but using different words to do it. You can’t say dianoia is not a part of kardia and neither can you say that psyche is not part of kardia as they are the same thing.

Something I can see know in this deeper study of the words is that the Heart (which you could call the soul or mind) – is the centre and seat of spiritual life – is the seat of thoughts – is the seat of passions, desires, appetites, affections - is the seat of the sensibilities (conscience) – is seat of the intelligence.

Quote: Romans 8: 3 to 7 clearly talks about the effect of flesh that corrupts man even after he is born again.

Yes - but you make it sound like it the body - the ‘flesh’ is not just the physical body – it is also the sensuous nature of man - earthly nature of man apart from divine influence which is prone to sin and opposed to God.

Sarx – G4561 – flesh the body of a man - used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship
born of natural generation - the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature" - without any suggestion of depravity - the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin - the physical nature of man as subject to suffering - a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast - the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.

Quote: The mind is not powerful enough to listen to the Spirit speaking through Conscience. His mind still listens to flesh and that is why he sins.

I can’t believe how you just separate everything – you have separated conscience from the mind and the mind from the flesh. The flesh is the body plus the heart (karida which includes psyche and dianoia) the flesh is everything we are or we could say it is man in his totality.

Look at this crazy statement “The mind is not powerful enough to listen to the Spirit” – The problem is the mind (heart) is to powerful – it is overflowing with pride and self-will as it thinks it can live a life separated from God even the Christian life – the Holy Spirit does convict out heart (conscience) but our hearts are hard and stubborn and it refuses to listen to instruction. That’s why we need a new heart which is a soft heart.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/12/11 7:34Profile









 Re:

Zac says we are "transformed by the renewing of our mind", but how can this be en toto? Once born-again, before we ever know anything about the Word, we are transformed by His life in us. We know we are different inside and it is because of His Spirit, His life which has taken up residence in our temple. "Old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new."

His Love has been shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost, not by the Word. I am not minimizing the renewing of our minds, but neither am I in the camp that places total emphasis on that.

Rom_5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

 2013/12/11 14:42





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