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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What united Whitfield and Wesley: the forgotten commandment

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 Re:

I thought I would repost the following,

///Leonard Ravenhill was not infallible but I found it fascinating that he said "God hangs revival on the keeping of the sabbath. Read Isaiah 58." !!///

You can read the rest of Ravenhill's comments on the Sabbath in an earlier post.

Bearmaster, it is very common today to drop the distinction between moral, civil and judicial. Certainly you will never find it neatly divided in so many words in the Old Testament, just as you will not find the doctrine of the trinity spelled out in so many words. Nonetheless, I think we all instinctively recognize the division. We know that even though children are still supposed to honour their parents we shouldn't stone them when they don't. We've separated the moral and the judicial and it didn't take the help of a theologian. The same is true of the ceremonial washings. We understand that these are ceremonial and so have no relevance to us, but we have no trouble discussing the story of Sodom and Gomorrah as a story that still has relevance, because we see that in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah the issue was a moral one.

Some laws reflect the character of God, so we would never expect them to change. Other laws have a temporary purpose like rules for children. I think we actually know this instinctively, which is why the division of the law into moral, civil and ceremonial has been almost universal for many years.

Bearmaster, the two great commandments spoken by our Lord were quoted directly out of the OT. And how do we love God? The answer is given in the first 4 commandments. And how do we love our neighbour? The answer is given in the last 6 commandments. Notice how Jesus did this in Matthew 19.18-19. He quoted 5 of the last 6 commandments and then concluded by summarizing them this way, "and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

But, again, we know this instinctively. We know that loving God means putting away idols and reverencing His name and works. We know that loving neighbours includes everything listed in the last 6 commandments. So, we mustn't pit OT against NT. Everything about the NT is greater and the greater is that obedience and conformity to God's standards becomes easier (not harder!).

[Edited: we are debating two questions. First, are we under law in the NT? And second, is the Sabbath commandment to be applied to the Sunday or has it been abolished such that every day is the sabbath?]

Again here is the miracle of the work of regeneration:

///the Holy Spirit internally moves us to obey and delight in an external law. Everyone here at sermonindex would agree that there is an objective standard that is right and wrong and whether people know it or not is beside the point. So, there is nothing wrong with an external code. The homosexual ought not to practice homosexuality. The pedophile ought not to hurt children. The liar ought not to lie. But only the inward working of the Holy Spirit can make a homosexual not a homosexual and a pedophile not a pedophile and a liar not a liar - but you notice nothing happened to the external code!! What happened happened to the individual.

What I am noticing in discussions here is that people are saying there is something wrong with the external code. The Bible says, rather, the problem is in our hearts - and this is where God makes His people stand out as salt and light, by so changing them that their attitude to that external code becomes different. They respond to the "oughts" with "I want" - but please again remember the "oughts" haven't vanished. God hasn't changed, it is we who have changed.///

Edited: I will get back to you Sree. Thank you for what you said. I hope the conversation can continue and continuee in a spirit of humility and grace.

 2013/11/6 15:13
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
God makes His people stand out as salt and light, by so changing them that their attitude to that external code... They respond to the "oughts" with "I want" - but please again remember the "oughts" haven't vanished. God hasn't changed, it is we who have changed.


I agree with this insofar that the fulfilled external law is internalized within the believer. You say the Holy Spirit leads you to externally observe Sunday (the ought) as a "want" (please correct me if I misrepresent your conviction); others are led by the Holy Spirit, however, to a non-external observance of a Sabbath rest which is personified in the Person of Christ Jesus Himself. This is their "want" of God's "ought", and they can make a good case of it scripturally. The final end is that no one has the right to judge another brother or sister in how they are being led by the Holy Spirit to observe a Sabbath day, holiday, festival, feast, etc. It is between them and the Lord.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2013/11/6 16:53Profile
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

by PaulWest on 2013/11/6 13:53:54

Quote:
God makes His people stand out as salt and light, by so changing them that their attitude to that external code... They respond to the "oughts" with "I want" - but please again remember the "oughts" haven't vanished. God hasn't changed, it is we who have changed.


I agree with this insofar that the fulfilled external law is internalized within the believer. You say the Holy Spirit leads you to externally observe Sunday (the ought) as a "want" (please correct me if I misrepresent your conviction); others are led by the Holy Spirit, however, to a non-external observance of a Sabbath rest which is personified in the Person of Christ Jesus Himself. This is their "want" of God's "ought", and they can make a good case of it scripturally. The final end is that no one has the right to judge another brother or sister in how they are being led by the Holy Spirit to observe a Sabbath day, holiday, festival, feast, etc. It is between them and the Lord.
_________


Amen!!

God bless
mj

 2013/11/6 17:05Profile









 Re:

Hi PaulWest,

You did not at all misrepresent me. I appreciate your post because I think it illustrates where the difference on this matter lies.

Here (it seems to me) is where we would differ - and it might help to look at some things we would agree on. We both recognize the "ought" of marriage between one man and one woman. And we recognize in the life of a believer that the Holy Spirit makes that "ought" a "want". The same is true of the first commandment. We ought not to worship idols. By the grace of God we don't want to, though we certainly do need to be reminded of the command and reminded of what idols can look like. We ought not to tell lies and by the grace of God we don't want to, though again we need to be reminded of the command and some of the implications.

So, what do we do when someone comes along and says "the Holy Spirit is leading me live a homosexual lifestyle?" Do we say "It is between them and the Lord?"

On the contrary, we take them to the Bible and urge them to repent. We insist that the leading or prompting they are 'feeling' must be tested and corrected by the Word of God. The same is true of the other commands. I may tell you that the Holy Spirit is leading me to leave my wife who I no longer enjoy. You would first point me to the "ought" of God's holy Word and then when I protested that it wasn't what I wanted you would say there is something wrong with my heart. If you were faithful as a friend and brother, you would not simply leave it between me and the Lord - because you are convinced on this point that there is an "ought".

Our hearts are deceitful things and must be checked by the Word of God. The debate here on this thread I think is on two different points. One, is there any "ought" any longer in the Christian life? Second, what is it?

I am saying yes to the first; and to the second, I am saying that the Sabbath is an ought. A holiday or festival or feast is another thing altogether, and I would be much more inclined to say it is between the individual believer and the Lord, but on this point of the Sabbath I am contending that as part of God's moral law (the 10 commandments) it is to be obeyed whether we want to or not... and if we don't want to we must admit the same here as we do on all other commandments, that the problem is rather our own hearts than the standard.

There are matters on which it is absolutely true that "the final end is that no one has the right to judge another brother or sister in how they are being led by the Holy Spirit," but on other matters that is not true at all. To argue that we mustn't judge on Sabbath observance is to argue that the commandment has been abrogated... and I am contending - as our forefathers did - that it hasn't been abrogated.

 2013/11/6 19:22









 Re: Stephen

Brother if one is to be led by the Spirit to appeal to external writings to govern their conduct before God. Then it will be the New Testament. The Old Testament is a shadow whose laws and rules governed Israel. And that was external obedience.

We are governed not by the external code of the law of Mosex. But we are governed by the internal working of the Holy Spirit who has written His laws on our hearts and minds.

When a New Covenant believer appeals to external writings to confirm the Spirits leading in ethical matters. It will be the New Covenant writings that we call the New Testament.

Bearmaster.

 2013/11/6 20:01









 Re:

Brothers having read and listened to the New Testament through several times. I see no evidence that believers are commanded to kweep a certain day as a Sabbath. If anything believers are enjoined to bind themselves to Jesus Christ who is their Sabbath rest. Our Sabbath is a Person and not a day.

Bearmaster.

 2013/11/6 20:04
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

First of all, I would like to thank you for your maturity, for your candor, for your level-headedness in discussing such an explosive topic such as this with rationale and grace. Bless you dear brother.

Now, to address your reply.

Quote:
So, what do we do when someone comes along and says "the Holy Spirit is leading me live a homosexual lifestyle?" Do we say "It is between them and the Lord?"


I would hope not! Homosexuality is one of the things proscribed by God specifically in one of Paul's letters to the church in Corinth (I Cor. 6:9), where Paul states those who practice such wil not inherit the kingdom of God. To say the Holy Spirit is leading one to homosexuality, one can now legally say within context that the Holy Spirit may also lead a man to slander, to extort, to engage in thievery, to swindle, etc. (vs. 10 and 11). Where you can get into debate here is whether or not the person in question doubts the veracity of Pauline scripture.

Quote:
A holiday or festival or feast is another thing altogether, and I would be much more inclined to say it is between the individual believer and the Lord, but on this point of the Sabbath I am contending that as part of God's moral law (the 10 commandments) it is to be obeyed whether we want to or not...



And again, I must appeal to Paul. In his letter to the Colossians (2:16) we read: "Let no one sit in judgment of you in matters of food, in drink, in matters of a feast day, or with regard to New Moon or Sabbath day."

I am actually very glad you brought up the homosexual issue concerning "Holy Spirit relativism", for in the same way Paul grouped homosexuality with all the other wicked practices which disqualify kingdom of God admittance (thus obliterating relativism in this category), so he also groups Sabbatarianism with all the other activities of which believers are tempted to sit in judgment upon others.

If I were to hand a New Testament to a Pygmie warrior in his native tongue to simply communicate the gospel of Jesus Christ so that he might come to salvific knowledge, do you think he will come away with a sudden compulsion to observe the Sabbath under a fear of displeasing the Father?



_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2013/11/6 20:35Profile









 Re:

Thank you Paul for that. Every time I am tempted to be discouraged that others are not seeing things as I am, I am encouraged by the graciousness of those who disagree - so thanks Paul (and Bearmaster also!).

I want to acknowledge what you said here because I thought it was very well put:

///I am actually very glad you brought up the homosexual issue concerning "Holy Spirit relativism", for in the same way Paul grouped homosexuality with all the other wicked practices which disqualify kingdom of God admittance (thus obliterating relativism in this category), so he also groups Sabbatarianism with all the other activities of which believers are tempted to sit in judgment upon others.///

We would agree, then, that some practices disqualify kingdom of God admittance. Would we also agree that some sinful practices would not disqualify kingdom of God admittance? Is it is possible for a Christian to sin in ignorance?

I think Colossians is an important text to go to because Paul reasons that we should not allow others to judge us on these matters because (and the because is important!) they are "a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." I actually like how the older translations translated the word 'sabbaths' rather than 'sabbath'. Every commandment came with positive commands that have been abrogated. With the 2nd commandment, for example, came the book of Leviticus. With the 5th commandment, for example, came the stoning of rebellious children. With the Sabbath commmand came additional sabbaths and feast days including for example the feast of the booths (see Leviticus 23; Numbers 28-29; Deuteronomy 16).

What Colossians is saying is that we are not to be judged on these feast days because they are shadows; and that includes the many additional sabbaths, but the sabbath itself is something else entirely. It was inscribed in stone along with the other commandments, was placed in the ark along with the other commmandments, was enjoined on the strangers in the midst of the camp (which other ceremonial laws were not) and was instituted before the fall and before there was need of shadows. Paul's words simply cannot be a reference to the command itself.

You added: ///If I were to hand a New Testament to a Pygmie warrior in his native tongue to simply communicate the gospel of Jesus Christ so that he might come to salvific knowledge, do you think he will come away with a sudden compulsion to observe the Sabbath under a fear of displeasing the Father?///

Brother, I think we ought to be careful that we do not judge the soundness of a particular doctrine or practice by the experiences of new believers. The way of salvation, Paul said, was known to Timothy from childhood; but there was still need of Paul and other authors of Scripture to urge their readers to go on to maturity and beyond the milk. I'm not sure what a pygmie warrior would conclude, but I do know that pygmie will need to be taught. God has appointed pastors and teachers for that very reason. Most of our elder brothers testify to discoveries they are still making 30 and 40 years into their walk.

When I went off to seminary it was to learn from scholars. I think we all believe there is at least some place for that kind of learning. I value scholarship, but I especially value the opinions of men thoroughly immersed in the Bible, who give themselves to much (!) prayer, and who are walking in godliness.

If a pygmie warrior did not reach the same conclusions that those godly praying studied men had reached I would sooner fault the pygmie warrior than the other men. (What I mean by fault is that I would urge him to go on praying, studying and obeying).

I want to assure you that by saying all this I am not pointing to myself (over against the pygmie warrior). Rather I am pointing to the evidence of church history which was once virtually unanimous on this point - and it was the godly, praying men who led the way. Virtually all the names we admire and respect (on all sides of our denominational divisions) until only recently... and we are not now at a high ebb spiritually.

Bearmaster, I believe that the OT saints were not as different as you are saying. Their obedience was external and internal (see the Psalms). The fact that they were given the two great commandments is evidence that their ethic and ours are not nearly so different as we make them out to be.

 2013/11/6 22:04









 Re:

Thank you Stephen2 for the text from Ravenhill's sermon. I do not see where he is specifically stating that the day is on Sat., he only mentions the following: "Don't you pray for a loved or someone else when you are fooling around on Sundays and won't keep the sabbath. Some of you go to movies on Sunday night." This appears to imply he believed more in a Christian Sabbath, which is observed on Sunday. Your reasoning is definitely something that I am considering and searching the Scriptures to see if these things be so.

Interesting enough Charles Finney's sermon entitled "FALSE PROFESSORS" mentions the following about the sabbath:

"4. All that class are serving your own gods, who suppose that the six days of the week belong to yourselves and that the Sabbath only is God's day.

There are multitudes who suppose that the week is man's time, and the Sabbath only God's, and that they have a right to do their own work during the week, and to serve themselves, and promote their own interests, if they will only keep the Sabbath strictly and serve God on the Sabbath. For instance: A celebrated preacher, in illustrating the wickedness of breaking the Sabbath, used this illustration: "Suppose a man having seven dollars in his pocket should meet a beggar in great distress, and give him six dollars, keeping only one for himself, and the beggar, seeing that he retained one dollar, should turn and rob him of that; would not every heart despise his baseness?" You see it embodies this idea--that it is very ungrateful to break the Sabbath, since God has given to men six days for their own, to serve themselves, and only reserved the Sabbath to himself, and to rob God of the seventh day in base ingratitude.

You that do this do not serve God at all. If you are selfish during the week, you are selfish altogether. To suppose you had any real piety would imply that you were converted every Sabbath and unconverted every Monday. If a man would serve himself all the week and really possess religion on the Sabbath, he requires to be converted for it. But is this the idea of the Sabbath, that it is a day to serve God in, exclusive of other days? Is God in need of your Services on the Sabbath to keep his work along? God requires all your services as much on the six days as on the Sabbath, only he has appropriated the Sabbath to peculiar duties, and required its observance as a day of rest from bodily toil and from those fatiguing cares and labors that concern the present world. But because God uses means in accomplishing his purposes, and men have bodies as well as souls, and the gospel is to be spread and sustained by the things of this world, therefore God requires you to work all the six days at your secular employments. But it is all for his service, as much as the worship of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is no more given for the service of God than Monday. You have no more right to serve yourselves on Monday than you have on the Sabbath. If any of you have thus considered the matter, and imagined that the six days of the week are your own time, it shows that you are supremely selfish. I beg of you not to consider that in prayer and on the Sabbath you are serving God at all, if the rest of the time you are considered as serving yourself. You have never known the radical principle of serving the Lord" (http://www.gospeltruth.net/1836LTPC/ltpc02_fals_profsrs.htm).

You might like to READ from a brother who has a Jewish heritage, yet he is born again. I asked him about keeping the sabbath and he emailed me the following:

//(BEGINNING QUOTE) "Here is what Adonai has to say about Shabbat; not me, but He...

Here is The Commandment for the yearly, High Holy Shabbat:

“And this shall be for you a law FOREVER: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you afflict your beings, and do no work, the native or the stranger who sojourns among you. “For on that day he makes atonement for you, to cleanse you, to be clean from all your sins before יהוה. “It is a Sabbath of rest for you, and you shall afflict your beings – a law FOREVER. (Leviticus 16:29-31 ISR98)

...and again:

“You do no work – a law FOREVER throughout your generations in all your dwellings. (Leviticus 23:31 ISR98)

...and here is the weekly Shabbat...--(7th day is NOT Sunday)

And יהוה spoke to Mosheh, saying, “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, and say to them, ‘The appointed times of יהוה, which you are to proclaim as holy gatherings, My appointed times, are these: ‘Six days work is done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a holy gathering. You do no work, it is a Sabbath to יהוה in all your dwellings. (Leviticus 23:1-3 ISR98)

So,

If scripture CLEARLY states FOREVER...and it is impossible for scripture to lie...then how could people dare say that Saturday's Shabbat suddenly shifted to Sunday?

HA! I mock the priests, priestesses, and prophets, and prophetesses of ba'al!!!

FOREVER MEANS FOREVER--that's that-- there is no argument at all-- end of story! And if ANYONE wishes to argue this, they are going against what is ETERNAL, they are going against God, they are going against The Messiah, The Lawgiver (Moses), and they are going against His Eternal Decree of Authority regarding His Election, because forever is FOREVER and I can neither say this nor stress this enough:

forever forever forever forever forever forever forever.

Why can't people see!?!?
Why can't people hear!?!?

What is wrong with the people?!?!

It is NOT found in new testament scripture that Shabbat was nullified or that it's day was changed! Why? Because it NEVER was! IT IS ETERNAL JUST LIKE HIM!

Here is why Brother...

It is because they are under STRONG DELUSIONS, as foretold in prophetic scripture concerning THIS VERY DAY--

Do we need any more proof that the blind simply cannot see?....if we need proof that Shabbat really is Saturday, all we need to do is look at the Hebrew calendar....The Hebrew calendar is NOT the Roman Gregorian calendar! The Hebrew calander is far more accurate, and is based on the solar cycle...it has been very constant for thousands of years--AMEN TO THAT!...Bless Israel!!! Bless the True Israel for being faithful in keeping proper time--HIS TIME!!!

Let this knowledge permeate your being with Wisdom. Go forward in The Spirit and stand against the abominations causing desolation, and stand against those who bear the mark of the beast in their minds & upon their right hand, who blindly cause perversity and nullify what is Eternal.

For it is written: His Name is blasphemed because of people like this!

Is this not all going down exactly as it's been foretold by the prophets regarding the last day?

Your servant In Messiah,--

These are His thoughts/ These are my thoughts/ These are The Spirits' thoughts: We are One.

The Shabbat, or Sabbath is Saturday. The Roman catholic church NEVER NEVER received permission to change that day to sunday. sunday is the first day of the week; therefore it is abominable and detestable unto God that THE 7th DAY OF REST be replaced by the first day, sunday, a day traditionally named by pagans, for pagans, who worshipped the sun: hence "day of the sun"

In Egypt the sun god was named 'ra'....

(--Lord please forgive me for mentioning the name of this Egyptian god, i referenced this foreign god to uncover the hidden Truth to those reading this--)

...very interesting because in Hebrew, the word 'ra' or 'רע' literally means evil or bad! THIS IS AN EVIL IN THE EYES OF THE LORD!

....check it for yourself!

When Messiah said; "those who break the least of "these" commands (commands of Torah) and teach other to do likewise will be least in the Kingdom." HE MEANT IT!

For instance....... I find it frightful that God our Father, for the good of His people, asked them to refrain from certain creatures as food, and yet He is mocked every day by false teachers... this is a ridiculous ongoing debate whereas people argue that Christ declared all foods clean...YEAH! FOODS THAT THE FATHER GAVE US PERMISSION TO EAT! Many people twist scripture and take little parts of it and read it for what they want it to be--so selfish... Having a form of religion but literally denying The Power thereof; His Authority. BUT I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT FOOD HERE! THIS IS A MATTER OF OBEDIENCE!

I don't know about anyone else, but for me, one who's set-apart unto God, i value every PRECIOUS decree that The Father commanded me through His Prophets, and my Brother Moses--The Torah. i value every PRECIOUS decree, without twisting, The Living Words, that The Father commanded me through His Messiah, my Brother, The King, The Lord Jesus Christ! Yes! He is my Brother!

I not only value His Commands, but I do them because I DEEPLY and SINCERELY Love His Majesty, The King. I might not be able to keep all of them perfectly, but I'm gonna keep doing my best to keep them because it is written: Be Holy because I am Holy."-- and i want to be Holy, and ALL OF THESE COMMANDS ARE THE WAYS AND MEANS TO BE HOLY WHETHER YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE--SPIRIT CONFESSED/APPROVED.

The only thing done away with at the cross was sacrificial ordinances. Why? BECAUSE CHRIST SHOWED US HOW TO BE A LIVING SACRIFICE! He came to show us how to live & love--LIFE--and YES, there is a huge difference between ordinances and laws! For as surely as The LORD lives, He said: "I did not desire your burnt offerings... I desire your compassion, obedience & Love." (1 Samuel15:22, Jerimiah 7:22&23, Hosae 6:6, Mark 12:33) READ IT!

WOW!-- Do you follow why The Lord wants all of us to hear and see in order that we might do!

This isn't about you or me. It's about HIM! Come on; all of you! Stop being so blind! Hear what He has to say!-- Not me! Not any man woman or child... Only Him and Him Alone!

So your being brought back to the Shabbat. The Shabbat was given, for us to rest. Messiah has become our rest. But to all of Israel and those who are grafted in, the Shabbat is a literal holiday; every 7th day. A day for you to rest and glorify your Father in Heaven יהוה (Bless His Name!) Do you truly love Him? For it was written: We remember and keep the Shabbat Holy.
____________________

I do as He asks of me and i am confused as to why others argue for their own cause and say, Christ did away with these precious commands.... WHAT A LIE OF SELFISH PRIDE AND UNREPENTANCE, FORMED WITHIN THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF THOSE MISGUIDED BY OUR ADVERSARY!

If your under this similar delusion, you've been deceived! I strongly recommend you ask The Master to reveal Truth to you, giving you eyes to see and ears to hear.

He is watching. I go forward to speak the truth because it is my charge to do so!

This is my oath before God, within His Body: Wake up those who sleep!

This is my oath unto you as your servant to bring you Truth and Good News.

I've been purchased with an awesome price-- I honor God with all my Heart, Soul, Mind & Stregnth!

And that's that...

We Love you,

--שבע" (END QUOTE)//

Wow, that's a lot to consider. Kenneth

 2013/11/6 22:26
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

Paul the Apostle confirms the validity of the 10 commandments:

Ephesians 6:1  Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Romans 13:9  For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Is any of these commandments replaced by the person of Jesus Christ? No, not in reality, this is just a conclusion in people's mind, but not what is said in the Bible. A commandment is a commandment, and remains a commandment and not a person.

Read all of the Ephesians passage, the tone is clearly "DO it", not spiritualize or rationalize it away, the straight gate is always 'believe it' - 'do it', not 'theologize it' - people that specialize in that already missed it. The letter and the Spirit do not oppose each other - if they do one of the two is in error. Since you think it cannot be the spirit, it must be the letter. Paul rejects that notion in full in above 2 verses. You have to ignore him and rely on church traditions to fill the gap in order to believe the opposite what he said is true.

 2013/11/6 22:46Profile





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