Mark 16:17-18These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues, they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover.Romans 15:17-19Therefore in Christ Jesus I have found reason for boasting in things pertaining to God. For I will not presume to speak of anything accept what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles by word and deed, in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.Hebrews 2:1-4For this reason we must pay much closer attention, to what we have heard so that we do not drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard. God also testified with them both by signs and wonders, and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to his own will..............................................................One is going to have to ask are the above vereses still true or has God stopped operating in the above dynamic. The cessionist will say God no longer operates in a signs and wonders way to autheticate the gospel truth. The cessionist will say the Holy Spirit only confines Himself to the boundaries of the written scrpitures. For this is what the cessionist sees in N.America and Western Europe. For that is the cessionists only frame of reference. Since no signs and wonders are accompanying gospel preaching. Cessionism must be true. At least in the west.One slight problem. No one told the 10/40 window that. In what we do the third world the gospel is going out in signs and wonders. There are credible reports of people coming to Christ in the gospel being preached in power. The power of signs and wonders through the Holy Spirit. Evidently the 10/40 window has not heard from their Calvinistic brethren that gifts of the Spirit and signs and wonders are no valid. My, my. Something is amiss here.One of the astounding things happening in the 10/40 window are Moslems by the hundreds and possibly the thousands coming to Christ by dreams and visions of Jesus. Moslems all throughout Islamic countries report seeing visions of the nan in white. This will often result in them picking up a New Testament and reading it. And they come to Christ. All through a dream or vision. But the cessionist says this is not supposed to happen. God does not operate that way. So someone going to tell the Holy Spirit that.I read of healings and even the dead being raised in third world nations where the gospel is being preached. The cessionist will be hard pressed to find an answer in their theology to explain what us happening in the 10?40 window. To say these events are demonic run the risk of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. To say these reports are false or fabricated run the risk of calling Gospel for Asia and VOM liars.Bottom line the cessionist has no explanation for explaining the Spirit moving in the 10/40 window because they can't. And their theology fails. It fails because the New Testament no where supports cessionation of spiritual gifts or signs and wonders.So why do we not see this happening in America. That will be another post.Bearmaster.
Stephen wrote:"Heydave, I don't of course think that knowledge in the way that you are defining it has passed away. I think the word has to be understood in context."Here is the context in verse 12..."For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."So the ability (of gift) to know the things of God will be done way with when we "Know, even as (we) are known". i.e. full knowledge. Are you know saying we don't even need a gift of knowledge? Really??All knowledge of God is a gift from God, not just what we may consider the 'special' gift of knowledge as in 1 Cor 12.The other problem you have in trying to use 1 Cor 13 to say the sign gifts have ceased is there is no mention here of miracles. Is that just pure conjecture on your part?One thing I have noticed from all those who push the cessationist view is that a lot of references are given from the teachings of men and church fathers and experience, etc. Funny that these are the ones to claim ' sola scriptura', but don't want to use scripture alone to make their case. Maybe the Charismatics are more 'sola scriptura' than they are!!I don't consider myself a Charismatic BTW, I just want to take scripture as it is and not force my 'doctrine' into it.Isn't cessationism just another 'ism'?
RE: ///So why do we not see this happening in America. That will be another post.///We do not see it in America with the exception of a a few sick folk occasionally being healed, for the same reason that Jesus could do no mighty work, in His own country.because of the unbelief.
I think that we are talking past each other. I would encourage you to go back and read Savannah's post as it was cited later by krautfrau. ///Cessationism then does not deny the reality that God can do whatever He wants whenever He wants (Psalm 115:3). It does not put God into a box or limit His sovereign prerogative.But it does acknowledge that there was something unique and special about the age of miracles and miracle-workers that defined the ministries of Moses and Joshua, Elijah and Elisha, and Christ and His apostles. Moreover, it recognizes the seemingly obvious fact that those kinds of miracles (like parting the sea, stopping the rain, raising the dead, walking on water, or instantly healing the lame and the blind) are not occurring today....So, the question is not: Can God still do miracles?Rather, the definitive question is this: Are the miraculous gifts of the New Testament still in operation in the church today–such that what was the norm in the days of Christ and the apostles ought to be expected today?To that, all cessationists would answer “no.”///When I was a missionary kid we saw miracles... I don't for a moment doubt that God still heals, that men still dream dreams and see visions but not in the same normative way that was true at the time of the apostles. To say that a man has the gift of healing or prophesy is different than saying that God healed someone. To say that I had a dream that I believed came from the Lord and that I checked with Scripture and benefited from is very different from taking the dream and saying to the people in my life, "Thus says the Lord..."Sola scriptura means that the Bible is our only rule, but that doesn't mean that we don't need help to interpret it. We need the Spirit of God to open our eyes, we need pastors and teachers and that is why we quote men like Hodge and Henry. You want me to hear your take on the Scripture, and I want to weigh what you are saying and what I am thinking against what the godly pastors and teachers from past generation said.I hope no one will mind me saying there is nothing per se wrong with an "ism". The question is: is that "ism" true. We needn't be opposed at isms as if giving something a nickname makes it suddenly false. I appreciate you brothers and your zeal for the Lord. Many of us in the cessationist share that zeal. But you are right at least on this: There is great unbelief in the church today and there is a tremendous problem with complacency.
RE: ///Sola scriptura means that the Bible is our only rule, but that doesn't mean that we don't need help to interpret it. We need the Spirit of God to open our eyes, we need pastors and teachers and that is why we quote men like Hodge and Henry. You want me to hear your take on the Scripture, and I want to weigh what you are saying and what I am thinking against what the godly pastors and teachers from past generation said.///Charles Hodge was a Systematic Calvinist, I believe that when we become willing to lay our traditions and preconcieved views down, and start to believe in Gods Sovereign hand in inspiring the Words of the Bible. We will start to relieze that the Scripture is not to be read so much from a systematic perspective and that the calvinistic view has applied alot of selective blindness to alot of Scripture inorder to make its doctrines and its lineage fit.Edit add : When we start reliezing this we need to start laying the commentaries aside, and going in and by faith claiming the promises of Scripture : "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." Theology and the Worship of it, has greatly harmed the church
proudpapa, I love your zeal for the Bible. We obviously share the conviction that the Bible is sufficient... but if we need to put away our commentaries than we need to put away seminaries and teaching and preaching. Also, I thought the following should be included in any list of systematic Calvinists:Charles SpurgeonMartyn Lloyd-JonesAW PinkRobert Murray M'CheyneGeorge Whitefield and most of the men used of God in the Great Awakening (Wesley being one of the only exceptions)Asahel Nettleton and most of the men used of God in the Second Great AwakeningJohn NewtonJC RyleJonathan Edwardsmost of the PuritansJohn KnoxJohn CalvinDuncan Campbell was a Calvinist, though he was certainly not reformed in every way. His biography is called Channel of Revival.
Hi Stephen2 Stephen2 wrote ///I thought the following should be included in any list of systematic Calvinists:Charles SpurgeonMartyn Lloyd-JonesAW PinkRobert Murray M'CheyneGeorge Whitefield and most of the men used of God in the Great Awakening (Wesley being one of the only exceptions)Asahel Nettleton and most of the men used of God in the Second Great AwakeningJohn NewtonJC RyleJonathan Edwardsmost of the PuritansJohn KnoxJohn CalvinDuncan Campbell was a Calvinist, though he was certainly not reformed in every way. His biography is called Channel of Revival.///I Believe that God has and does use men whom hold to calvinistic theology, I personally believe that they are more likely to be anointed while preaching than when they are setting down writing a systematic study or commentary relying heavy on what others before them taught. , instead of being still and waiting for a personal revelation of What is being spoken. The Scripture is so deep that the same text speaks differently to different people in differet situations at different times, we must becareful as not to box the Scriptures into the confines of commentary or certain traditional understandings.We also must recognize that Scriptures are they that testify of the anointing Stephen2, I appreciate your attitude in this discussion.
Thank you brother! And I know that if we could have occasion to meet in person we would spend our time in prayer rather than in debate. Our King Jesus is precious, and I have the feeling that most of us using this site would agree that we need and greatly want more of Him. And probably some of our debate is simply over what we CALL the things many of us on different sides of this debate have experienced! How we need to pray that the Lord would grant us more of Him.
RE: ///Thank you brother! And I know that if we could have occasion to meet in person we would spend our time in prayer rather than in debate. Our King Jesus is precious, and I have the feeling that most of us using this site would agree that we need and greatly want more of Him. And probably some of our debate is simply over what we CALL the things many of us on different sides of this debate have experienced! How we need to pray that the Lord would grant us more of Him.///Amen brother, I agree
Brothers it would be an honor to be in the sane jail cell with you.Bear. :)