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Discussion Forum : General Topics : What is the difference between the old covenant vs. the new covenant.

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rookie
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 Re:

Sree writes;

But when I gave my life to Christ, I started reading the New Testament first, I was very much gripped by the Gospel, the teachings of Jesus. It was not until I had a good understanding of NT did I turn to OT."


I too spent the first 40 years of life without submitting my life to the LORD. I too fed on only the NT for the first 3 years. And then, attending a bible study on eschotology?...I stood up and said, "all we need is the NT." After I sat down, an old man stood and said,"I live in the OT, because the mysteries of God are revealed there."

And now I see as that old man saw.


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Jeff Marshalek

 2013/10/31 5:56Profile
rookie
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 Re:

A general thought...

I often read and hear of believer's sentiments concerning the history of Israel as being one of failure. Very little is ever said of the times of revival experienced in various generations in the books of the Law and Prophets.

Yet today, especially this ministry promotes the understanding and the need for a revival in this generation. Just like the testimony in the book Judges, generations after Christ's sacrifice are both found wanting and others rejoicing. Western Europe, the site of the Reformation, is now largely wanting and void of the grace of God. I have traveled to New England, and there too, I have witnessed the spirit of falsehood and deception. New Age and Scientology occupy the pews where saints once worshiped.

Why do so many reject the evidence of God pouring out His grace on His people?


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Jeff Marshalek

 2013/10/31 6:35Profile
PaulWest
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 Re:

Quote:
Very little is ever said of the times of revival experienced in various generations in the books of the Law and Prophets.


This is true. I would submit that the times of revival in the books of the law and prophets which usually followed a season of repentance are an illustration of the up-and-down cyclic pattern of defeat and triumph which so characterizes serving God under the Old Covenant.

Life under the Old Covenant was up and down. One moment a prophet was calling down fire on a crowd of false priests; the next moment he is running for his life from an angry woman. This again is an illustration of the "mountain top" experience so typical with those who have not understood the grace of the New Covenant. They experience a revival where God's presence is manifest strongly, and then bank on it for as long as they can. As long as they are being prospered with His presence, and the called-down "fire" of the Holy Spirit, they remain bold and full of faith.

But bring in a Jezabel at their workplace or a Delilah on the internet or a Goliath in their marraige and things begin to fall apart. The glory begins to fade, and like Moses, they have to veil themselves so as to not show others that the power of God is diminishing. They need another revival, and so God uses the enemy (an invading spiritual troop, another conquering nation) to once again precipitate repentance through defeat and misery. This is Old Covenant 101: Fly high for a time, slowly cool down, backslide into defeat, turn back to God, fly high once again. Repeat cycle.

Now, I am not knocking this, because this has been my experience for far too long. I do not want to live in the Old Testament anymore. I would rather live under the New Covenant, where I am always lead in triumph through Christ, and where I can go from glory to glory instead of from glory to backsliding to outright spiritual depression and back to glory. If we are honest with ourselves we will admit this has been our experience, in spite of all the New Covenant promises which reflect something much different.



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Paul Frederick West

 2013/10/31 9:54Profile
rookie
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 Re:

PaulWest writes:

Life under the Old Covenant was up and down. One moment a prophet was calling down fire on a crowd of false priests; the next moment he is running for his life from an angry woman. This again is an illustration of the "mountain top" experience so typical with those who have not understood the grace of the New Covenant."


I do not see this in the way you have applied section of Scripture...

The Holy Spirit called upon Elijah to cleanse deceit. And we know that persecution always follows those who are filled with the Holy Spirit. Likewise, Paul's testimony is similar is it not?

Why has the New England states, once on fire for God fallen into deception?


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Jeff Marshalek

 2013/10/31 10:50Profile
proudpapa
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Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

What is everyones view of this Scripture ?

 2013/10/31 11:16Profile
PaulWest
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 Re:

Quote:
The Holy Spirit called upon Elijah to cleanse deceit. And we know that persecution always follows those who are filled with the Holy Spirit. Likewise, Paul's testimony is similar is it not?


Of course persecution follows, but the question we are dealing with is the reaction to the persecution under each respective covenant. Elijah fled from Jezebel and complained to God; Paul stood regally before Felix, the Jews, the pagans at Lystra, even desiring to stand before Caesar Himself in the lion's den at Rome if need be - to give a defense for the gospel. Certainly you don't hear of anyone grumbling and complaining "why me God?" and "I wish I was never born" because of persecution in the New Testament, post Calvary. This is the point I am trying to make here. Grace is the catalyst of the two covenants.

Quote:
Why has the New England states, once on fire for God fallen into deception?


I don't know what this has to do with the covenant discussion we are having. If anything, it shows just how wretched trying to live under the Old Testament law is. The New Covenant of Jesus Christ deals with individuals, not colonies or worldly theocratic governments. The "City on a Hill" that Winthrop envisioned never came to pass. Spectral-evidenced trials, public floggings, Sabbath observance by the sword, sectarian discrimination and the like are not exactly my understanding of a deceptionless society. What was New England like before she fell into deception?


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Paul Frederick West

 2013/10/31 11:19Profile
rookie
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 Re:

Paul,

We are given this testimony of Elijah according to your comment of an event in his life...



1Ki 19:1
And Ahab told Jezebel all that Elijah had done, also how he had executed all the prophets with the sword.

1Ki 19:2
Then Jezebel sent a messenger to Elijah, saying, “So let the gods do to me, and more also, if I do not make your life as the life of one of them by tomorrow about this time.”

1Ki 19:3
And when he saw that, he arose and ran for his life, and went to Beersheba, which belongs to Judah, and left his servant there.

1Ki 19:4
But he himself went a day’s journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a broom tree. And he prayed that he might die, and said, “It is enough! Now, LORD, take my life, for I am no better than my fathers!”


Yes, Elijah faltered and according to verse 4 above he called out to God in shame for what he did.


1Ki 19:5
Then as he lay and slept under a broom tree, suddenly an angelfn touched him, and said to him, “Arise and eat.”

1Ki 19:6
Then he looked, and there by his head was a cake baked on coals, and a jar of water. So he ate and drank, and lay down again.

1Ki 19:7
And the angelfn of the LORD came back the second time, and touched him, and said, “Arise and eat, because the journey is too great for you.”


This testimony of Elijah reminds me of another...


Luk 22:39
Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His disciples also followed Him.

Luk 22:40
When He came to the place, He said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.”

Luk 22:41
And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed,

Luk 22:42
saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

Luk 22:43
Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him.

Luk 22:44
And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.fn


Both Jesus and Elijah were confronted with imminent danger and both in their moment of weakness were strengthened by an angel sent from God.


Now concerning Paul, I do not recall any Scripture which compares to the imminent threat similar to Elijah's. And Scripture says nothing of Paul's last moments. But of Scripture we find that Elijah's last moments on earth were glorious....


2Ki 2:11
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.



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Jeff Marshalek

 2013/10/31 19:49Profile
rookie
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 Re:

PaulWest wrote:

'I don't know what this has to do with the covenant discussion we are having. If anything, it shows just how wretched trying to live under the Old Testament law is. The New Covenant of Jesus Christ deals with individuals, not colonies or worldly theocratic governments. The "City on a Hill" that Winthrop envisioned never came to pass. Spectral-evidenced trials, public floggings, Sabbath observance by the sword, sectarian discrimination and the like are not exactly my understanding of a deceptionless society. What was New England like before she fell into deception?'


According to Scripture we are living in the "time of the gentile." And as you point out, the New Covenant is far better than the Old Covenant, and the time of the Old Covenant has ended. I hear many teachers of the Scriptures point to the failures of OT Israel. They always point to those who backslid under the Law of Moses. And then I hear these same teachers expound upon the victorious Church of the New Covenant. Yet today in many places where the "victorious church' once flourished have now decayed into idol worship and deception.

According to the evidence I see today, there is no difference between the generation of today and that of Elijah's time.

Would you agree?


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Jeff Marshalek

 2013/10/31 20:01Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
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 Re:

Quote:
Both Jesus and Elijah were confronted with imminent danger and both in their moment of weakness were strengthened by an angel sent from God.


Good point. The Son of Man had his own will which was subject to emotion, marvel, hunger, sadness, frustration, etc. He was clearly distressed when He asked His Father to take the cup from Him! For the first time since the inception of eternity the Son of God was about to be separated from His Father (and some believe descend into hell), carrying the burdens of all the sins of the world. He had to fulfill Old Testament scripture and suffer being forsaken and cry out to God as was written. All this is pre-Calvary. The Apostles at the same time were hiding away, fearing for their lives like Elijah, still under the law. The temple veil had not been rent yet and the Holy Spirit hadn't been sent to fill their hearts with victorious grace.

Elijah ran from a woman who put a hit out on him. If Paul hid himself away in a cave and grumbled each time a pagan priest or angry Judiazer put a contract on his head, he probably wouldn't have any time to plant churches and preach the Word! But we know Paul from his own admission that he experienced "fears within". The difference between him and Elijah in dealing with the fear was that under the New Covenant the grace of God could actually set him free from its dominion. He didn't even have to wait for an angel; the Holy Spirit indwelt him with immediate resolve.

You bring up very good points brother.


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Paul Frederick West

 2013/10/31 20:18Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
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 Re:

Quote:
According to the evidence I see today, there is no difference between the generation of today and that of Elijah's time.


I agree with you, and would even say that we are at a much lower level, both morally and spiritually than the Old Testament prophets. In spite of the grace of the New Covenant we are exhorted to avail ourselves to.


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Paul Frederick West

 2013/10/31 20:27Profile





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