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I have been following yours and Brenda's posts about holiness and I came upon this chart. I did not know that Keswick is associated with Calvinism. Is this chart correct? Just-In

"More generally, the Keswick movement was impacted by two streams of theology: the "new light" and New School Calvinism of American revivalism, particularly in the figures of Charles G. Finney and Asa Mahan of the Oberlin school and Wesleyan perfectionism particularly in the Holiness movements. Yet, in the interplay of Wesleyan and Calvinist theological streams, tensions existed, particularly in the doctrine of sanctification. J. Robertson McQuilkin, a Keswick scholar, has pointed out that Keswick was accused by Presbyterian minister B.B, Warfield of teaching perfectionism of the Wesleyan kind5 and from the other side, H.A. Baldwin, a Free Methodist minister, objected to Keswick holiness when he commented "'Keswickism' is described as 'one of the most dangerous enemies of the experience of holiness...for they give us to understand that such a thing as the entire eradication of the carnal nature from the soul is an impossibility in this world."6 This friction was due, in part, to the diversity of leadership. While the leadership of the Keswick conferences was dominated by evangelical Anglicans and American revivalists, there were some Wesleyans in the group. However, modern scholarship generally agrees that the Keswick view of sanctification had more of a Reformed view……………."

 2013/10/3 19:25

Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1563
Scotland, UK


Quotes: Perhaps it is just vanity on my part because in considering your second link it is undoubtably true that she is asserting a definite physical possession.

Hope this helps…

I shared on here about how I was filled by the Holy Spirit, what I haven’t shared is what happened after that to the point where I got deliverance. Why God decided it to do it that way I don’t know but it has helped me as I do watch out what I am thinking.

Now please bear with me and understand that I haven’t shared this with a lot of people as some might class me as loony tune. Basically after being filled with the Spirit, I became aware that there was a devil in me. I don’t know where it was located but I do know it was influencing my mind with thoughts. As I began to understand that these thoughts were not my own and began to control my body from lashing out in rage. On occasions I had to sit in a corner just shaking resisting with all might the desire to explode in anger with terrible thoughts running through my mind.

But as time moved on I began to detect the more subtle thoughts that sought to influence me to act in a certain way. Then as the day of my deliverance drew nearer (I didn’t know it at the time) there was a surge in activity. On the Sunday afternoon after the morning service where I heard that an Indian preacher had come from India and knocked on the Pastor’s door saying God has told me to come here to preach in your church. That afternoon was terrible all I could do was sit in the corner with my hands on my head just resisting the thoughts, praying God you have got to help me, I was so glad when a man from the church came to take me to the meeting to listen to the Preacher from India.

Now after the preaching which was more a testimony of the pastor’s life, which was like mine plagued by violence and out bursts of anger, he then asked those who were walking a righteous life to stand up and he would pray for us. As I stood in the congregation he began to pray and an unseen force connected with my chest and knocked me down onto my chair. The church member who took me to the church helped me back onto my feet, but I just stood there shaking. I was then surrounded by church people and the Indian pastor and ended up on the floor again. What I do remember clearly was the pastor saying that’s it it’s coming out and the stench of a thousand bad breaths as it left out of my mouth. I don’t know why I could taste a spirit in my mouth maybe it was Gods way of letting me know that it had left for sure.

The time period was 3 months from start to finish, take from my testimony what you will and I hope it helps in this subject… However from my point of view it was in my mind that it wanted to influence, it want me to choose to agree to the thoughts and yield myself over to a spiritual force.

Colin Murray

 2013/10/4 2:39Profile


Brenda your idea of testing is requiring me to cease from it. Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues 1 Cor 14:39. You see I am teachable God says through the bible speak in tongues and don’t let anyone forbid you from doing it.

It is not forbidding, it is testing which we are instructed to do.

Forbidding is being told in a church setting that something is banned permanently. I am suggesting that you put a restriction upon yourself as a temporary testing.

While we are still under the power of sin, and make no mistake, not surrendering entirely to the will of God is sin, deliberate sin, we are open to deception and the very nature of deceptions at this level, of knowing of the truth yet not acting on it, involves very clever and subtle deceptions which are especially aimed at keeping seekers from entering into the blessing and as you say, the Lord will not force them into seeing the truth but will leave them to their deceptions the problem is not their minds but their unwielding spirits which you have already admitted to.

I have not promised anything at all. I am sharing my knowledge that a number of people I know are actively seeking the blessing and all speak in tongues, since second blessing is taught only in that part of the church at present, but according to the errors that Pentecostalism brought in, and none of them are finding the blessing despite years of seeking. All of them besides will not test the spirits as I suggest which is in disobedience to the scriptures and if we will not obey in a small thing then how can we obey in such a huge matter as submitting to the entire rule of Christ?

There is a reason why many are seeking yet none are finding.

Basically after being filled with the Spirit, I became aware that there was a devil in me.

Indeed the false baptism of the Spirit. What followed afterwards regarding a 'deliverance' I suggest may also be deception - a false deliverance. If you attributed a work of the enemy to the Holy Spirit then that requires repentance and deliverance and an acknowledgement that you dabbled in a realm where baptism of the HS is made much more difficult.

 2013/10/4 5:17


It is a wonderful thing to pray in the Spirit and to sing in the Spirit, praying in tongues and singing in tongues as the Spirit of God gives you utterance. I never get out of bed in the morning without having communion with God in the Spirit. It is the most wonderful thing on earth. It is most lovely to be in the Spirit when you are dressing and you come out to the world and the world has no effect on you. You begin the day like that and you will be conscious of the guidance of the Spirit right through the day.

"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue" (Ver. 18, 19) . Many people will come round and say that Paul said he would rather speak five words with the known tongue than ten thousand words without understanding. Then will always leave out that part of the sentence, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all." Paul was here correcting the excessive speaking in tongues without interpretation, which was not for the edification of the assembly. If there was no interpreter present, they were simply to speak to themselves and to God. Suppose we had someone preaching and we had twenty or thirty people all up and down in tongues, it would be very serious. There would be confusion. The people who attend the meeting would rather have five words of edification, consolation and comfort than ten thousand words without understanding.

Because you feel a touch of the Spirit you are not obliged to speak in tongues. The Lord will give you a sound mind so that you will hold your body in perfect order for the edification of the church. But Paul here says that he spake in tongues more than they all; and, as it is evident that the Corinthian church was given to this thing very considerably, he certainly must have been speaking tremendously in tongues both day and night. He was so edified by this wonderful, supernatural means of being built up, that he could go to the church, and preaching in a manner so that they could all understand him, he would marvelously edify the saints.

"In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not" (Verses 21, 22). There are many who call themselves believers who are extremely unbelieving. One of the unbelieving "believers" was a Methodist minister who lived in Sheffield, England. A man gave him a check and told him to go and take a rest. This man also gave him my name and address; so, when he got to Bradford, he began to inquire about me. He was warned against me as one of the "tongues people," and was told to be very careful and not to be taken in, for the whole thing was of the devil. He said, "They will not take ME in; I know too much for them to take me in."

He was quite run down and needed rest; and when he came he said, "A friend of yours sent me, is it all right?" I replied, "Yes, you are welcome." But we could do nothing with that man. It was impossible. Talk? You never heard anyone talk like him. It was talk, talk, talk, talk. I said, "Let him alone, he will surely finish some day." We had dinner, and he talked through dinner time; we had the next meal and he talked through that.

It was our Friday night meeting for those seeking the Baptism and the room began to fill with people and still he talked. No one could get an edge in. He lodged himself in a place where he could not be disturbed by those coming in. I said, "Brother, you will have to stop now, we are going to pray." As a general thing we had some singing before going to prayer; but this time it was different. It was God's order. We got straight to prayer and as soon as we began to pray two young women, one on this side and the other on the other side began speaking in tongues. And this minister-it was all so strange to him-moved from one to the other to hear what they were saying. In a little while he said, "May I go to my room?" I said, "Yes, brother, if you wish." So he went to his room and we had a wonderful time.

We went to bed about eleven o'clock or so and at half-past three in the morning this man came to the bedroom door. Knock, knock, "May I come in?" "Yes, come in." He opened the door and said, "He is come, He is come"-holding his mouth, for he could hardly speak in English. I said, "Go back to bed, tell us tomorrow." Tongues are for the unbeliever, and this man was an unbeliever, an unbelieving "believer." Again and again I have seen conviction come upon people through the speaking in tongues.

The next morning he came down to breakfast and said, "Oh, was not that a wonderful night?" He said, "I know Greek and Hebrew, and those two young women were speaking these languages, one was saying in Greek, `Get right with God,' and the other was saying the same thing in Hebrew. I knew it was God speaking, and I knew it was not they. I first had to repent. I came in an unbeliever, but I found that God was here. - In the night God laid me on the floor for about two hours. I was helpless. Then God broke through." Here he began again to speak in tongues, right over the breakfast table.

God will have witnesses of His mighty power that no man can gainsay. You will have to see that the Holy Ghost will speak through you in tongues and interpretation which will bring conviction to the unbeliever in the open air; and you will find that God will convict by this means.

From Smith Wigglesworth - The Gift of Tongues

 2013/10/4 9:19

 Re: The Kundalini Spirit & The Souls & Bodies of men!

in love, I say, it is simply amazing to me how much ENERGY is expended in crafting LONG INVOLVED posts on the Way..

mistake me not, reasoning and interchanges on this Most Holy Faith are good, but I pose this question, all the hours spent crafting posts, are these hours matched in secret prayer?....I read some of whats been written, and I was led to post this Precious Passage from Messiah:
(red letters)
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:6-8(ESV)

oh, how I love reading "red letters" in the Word, that is What Messiah is quoted as saying....using the "wind blows" to explain the Deep Things of God....and how weary and positively tired I get reading the words of men...that said , I praise God that brother Andrew raised a horn of warning.

 2013/10/4 9:25


in love, I say, it is simply amazing to me how much ENERGY is expended in crafting LONG INVOLVED posts on the Way. Neil

As the chief sinner in this habit of crafting long posts I suppose I ought to apologise to you Niel. Or anyone else who feels the same. I know that Jason {Solomon} feels the same and no doubt others too.

It would be a mistake to imagine that in these posts I am expressing my own thoughts in the sense of my opinion or understanding on a given matter. Much of what I write is exploratory in the sense that I am myself seeking to work things out for the sake of ministry face to face and not in the context of the forum. I suppose I could just deceive myself and write to an imaginary friend and work things out that way. Or I could just pray as you suggested. I do pray but writing to an imaginary friend seems unlikely to convince me that there may be merit in sharing in this way for others, as well as myself. In any event I am quiet capable of writing so as to seemingly "support" opposing threads of thought. This produces a tension and it is by this tension that the balance can be found. I have often found that truth is not to the right or the left but straight ahead. To navigate that straight way of ministry in the word of faith requires a balance in all things which are not an issue of life.

So there you are Neil I am writing for two men not just one man! He that walks to the left and he that walks to the right. No wonder these are long posts!

 2013/10/4 11:01


Neil, whenever you start to judge someone's prayer life, it always casts a spotlight on yours. Why do we always feel led to reason what someone else should or should not be doing?

This is a forum where people exchange thoughts. If we cannot add to the discussion, why try to stop it?

 2013/10/4 12:10


Thanks for sharing Colin. I have read your previous comments about when you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Am I correct in saying that this was at the same time that you were saved? I recall one post in which you spoke of lying in bed having just finished a violent episode you cried out to God and that was when a wind rushed out of you and [another] wind rushed back into you. Is that correct? This latest sharing is three months after this happened?

Anyway I cannot say anything about these things. I would say one thing however which will end this post and probably my time here on SI.

I am completely sick and tired of being misunderstood and completely finished with seeking to share with brethren who have their heads in paper bags.

 2013/10/5 1:32

Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272

 Re: Paper bags

The paper bags are on our heads to cover our tears of shame.

Shame that we don't hear what you are saying.

Please continue to write as there are some, a few, who feed on what you receive from the Lord.

A hungry brother



 2013/10/5 6:46Profile


Hello David

Thank you for your encouragement. I could say that I have personally received more from visiting and participating in this form in the last 18 months than it would be possible to say.

The Lord brought me here and I came with a spirit of desiring to understand something concerning the USA. I have learned what it is that I needed to understand and the knowledge of it is a burden and a sadness. There is coming upon the USA a time of unimaginable trouble. Those who live in the USA and who truly love the Lord will be kept because the Lord is able to keep those who are His. Beyond that all I can see is chaos out of which chaos Europe and the Great Sea will be loosed to her end of days.

I am sorry for the comment to Colin it was not directed at Colin really and I should not have said it at all let alone tagged it to the end of my post to Him. The same is true for Neil who I know meant well and did not say anything which was not purposeful. The irony is that I do spend every single day reading the word, writing, testing in prayer and meditating on the things which are on my heart. I am blessed and have all of my time free for the Lord. With the exception of my son Daniel who always needs me due to his mind there is nothing else to take up the hours and resources I have. In the last few months it has become clear to me that I need to focus on that which in the end has a more geographical reality based in Europe than focus on the USA and North America. I should have been more mature and left it at that and not felt the need to express my frustration.

To that end I am going to devote my time to Europe and thank God for the things I have learned here on SI. I will post on my own site from now on.

 2013/10/5 7:44

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