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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Our Sense of Sinfulness Works for Good

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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2012
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

It is true that I am human and have an unregenerate flesh. so, I am prone to temptation and from time to time find my flesh desiring what I should not do. This condition is common to all believers, and I know that we are all very aware of this fact. if this is what is meant by a sense of sinfulness, then I am on the same page. But I am afraid this is not what is meant and I think I am not on the same page.


the writer of Hebrews says this. 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. note 3  But in those sacrifices there isa remembrance again made of sins every year.


The remembrance of sin was not a good thing. The continual shedding of blood served only to remind the people that they were sinful, but never made them righteous. But the blogs of a new and better covenant did. As such we have been purged to the degree that we should have no more conscience of sin. This is, to me, the state of realization and conscience of righteousness, not that of sinfulness.


Paul tells us that Jesus, who knew no sin, was made sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ. I have experienced that revelation and acknowledgement of this righteousness serves to revive in me the sense of God's love and grace and compel me to do that which righteous men do. An ever present sense of sinfulness does not compel me to holiness. In fact, according to the writer of Hebrews, that sense of sinfulness should be gone altogether.


However, an acknowledgement that my flesh stil awaits it's salvation compels me to be aware that I too can fall off I give in to the flesh, and that knowledge is healthy. Thinking that I am still sinful is, to me, very counter productive to my spiritual life as I am no longer a sinner, nor am I sinful. I am a man made righteous by the blood of the lamb who still lives in a body of flesh and am susceptible to temptation.


sorry for the spelling errors, but I did not catch all of three wrong words my phone inserted.


_________________
Travis

 2013/7/19 20:00Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

twayneb,

very well said. That is it.







 2013/7/19 21:14Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1572
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote by Paul West: What has been crucified scripturally is the "old man", not the flesh. The flesh's influence can be put down through walking in the Spirit, but it is never truly removed - only conditionally nullified through the law of the Spirit of life in Christ to them who do not walk after the flesh.

Here is the scripture reference you talking about

Roman 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Let’s amplify the verse to see if we can gain a deeper understanding:

Rom 6:6 We know that our old (unrenewed) self was nailed to the cross with Him in order that [our] body [which is the instrument] of sin might be made ineffective and inactive for evil, that we might no longer be the slaves of sin.

So you say it can it never truly can be removed meaning to me always active always ready to spring forth while the amplification of this scripture say that our body can be made ineffective and inactive for evil, so that’s we will no longer be slaves to sin.

Quote by Paul West: Those who are seeking a one-time experimental death blow to the flesh thinking it will solve all their sin problems, will be sorely disappointed.

Paul I am one of these who is seeking sanctification why simply because I heard God voice on the subject and I believe him… I believe that the old self was nailed to the cross so that our body (the instrument of sin) might be made ineffective and inactive for evil and that our body can then be made effective and active for righteousness and have fruits unto holiness.

Next Scripture you say “the flesh influence can’t be removed but rather put down”.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

So the flesh can be crucified but what does mean by the flesh..

Let’s amplify the verse:

Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.

So we get a definition of what the flesh is (the godless human nature) and it can be crucified which takes us back to Romans 6:6.

So “the flesh” the godless human nature can be crucified and the body can be made inactive to sin as we have found out from Rom 6:6 AMP that the old (unrenewed) self “was nailed to the cross in order that our body (the instrument) of sin might be made ineffective and inactive for evil, that we might no longer be the slaves of sin.

There a point you say “only conditionally nullified through the law of the Spirit of life in Christ to them who do not walk after the flesh” I am always skeptical of conditions other than faith. Here is my reasoning the “condition” you’re placing on nullification is not walking after the flesh, which sound like suppression to me a constant struggle to keep in down.

I would also say that you cannot walk in the Spirit unless you’re crucified so that the body is made ineffective and inactive for evil and until that point you can’t but help walk after the flesh… What I am getting at is the body obeys it does what it’s told the issue is not with body so the problem comes from another source…

Quote by Paul West: The "lusts of the flesh" are crucified via spirit-led mortification, but the flesh itself cannot be crucified, for its definitive eradication will not occur until we become as Christ Himself at glorification.

Lust what is it and where does it come from?

Christ says: Matt 15:18-19 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

Christ says out of the heart proceeds evil thoughts, but we could also call it the Soul here is an example showing the 3 areas of the soul or you could say heart.

Lust – starts with a thought (mind), then it becomes a desire (emotion), which leads to action (will)

Now that I have established where lust comes from would you say that this source of defilement the heart (or soul) is a part of the "old man", “old (unrenewed) self”, “the godless human nature” The answer is yes as it’s the very source of the defilement.

When Christ was crucified would the heart the very source of the Adamic defilement, where all evil thoughts and desires lurk and proceed out of been crucified with him of course it would.

What have we seen the body is not the source of the problems it’s an instrument a tool that used for sin or for righteousness, it’s the slave to another master either sin or righteousness, but for it to become ineffective and inactive for evil something else needs to be dealt with.

So the issue stems from the somewhere else Christ told us the Hearts is the source of defilement, this what is called the Old man, the unrenewed self, the flesh the godless human nature it we have found has been nailed to the cross it is dead, it is finished, there is no resurrection for the old life after it has been dealt with on the cross.

Jumping straight into the Amplified here

1 Peter 4:1 So, since Christ suffered in the flesh [a]for us, for you, arm yourselves with the same thought and [b]purpose [patiently to suffer rather than fail to please God]. For whoever has suffered in the flesh [having [c]the mind of Christ] is done with [intentional] sin [has stopped pleasing himself and the world, and pleases God].

What do you read what can you see 1. “arm yourselves with the same thought” thought were in the heart(the mind) but whats the motive is it lust or is it love. Its love you’re being encouraged to suffer because you love God.

2. “having the mind of Christ” you could write here having the heart of Christ but the next bit is even more interesting “is done (or finished) with intentional sin” powerful stuff but there is more “has stopped pleasing himself and the world, and pleases God”.

So let’s go over that last bit with my amplification added For whoever has suffered in the flesh having the heart of Christ is done with intentional sin has stopped pleasing himself and the world, and pleases God.

All I see is Love, the heart of Christ the new heart, is a heart that loves God, it doesn’t sin intentionally, it suffers in the flesh, it stops you from pleasing self and the world, as it only wants to please Gods motivated by love.

King James 1 Peter 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Using the Amplified 1 Peter 4:2 So that he can no longer spend the rest of his natural life living by [his] human appetites and desires, but [he lives] for what God wills.

Let’s remind ourselves about the Quote by Paul West: The "lusts of the flesh" are crucified via spirit-led mortification, but the flesh itself cannot be crucified, for its definitive eradication will not occur until we become as Christ Himself at glorification.

The King James says we should no longer live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men ("lusts of the flesh" ) the Amplified deepens the meaning by saying the rest of his natural life living by human appetites and desires but again it means ("lusts of the flesh")

It’s not that we have to mortify the lusts of the flesh, by shear will power and proclaiming it’s “spirit-led mortification” that’s nonsense why because we should have the mind of Christ or as I have shown the heart of Christ.

In that heart it only longs to please Christ, it longs to the Father’s will it won’t intentionally sin as it would break the heart, but if they do they will be quick to repent with much tears and weeping until restored as they won’t want to please themselves but only the Father in heaven.

Look at the last bit of the scripture “but he lives for what God wills” is this not Christ, did not Christ say this think about John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

But I am going a bit of track here "lusts of the flesh" lust resides in the uncrucified heart of man, it’s the heart that is the source of defilement, it is this defilement that causes us to be called flesh as we were ruled by our naturally fleshly desires but thank God it has been crucified with Christ and we can know have the mind of Christ so that we don’t live the rest of our lives in the flesh following the lusts of men.

I don’t really care if I am called a Gnostic, I have heard my Father’s voice on this matter, there is a second work of grace for the believer, it has been a long time studying, reading but it’s getting clearer and clearer for me and it’s all based around Roman 6:6 and truly knowing, I mean really, really knowing as in a revelation from God the Father what Christ did on the Cross and when that revelation comes you’ll believe and step into a new walk in Christian life truly led by Gods Holy Spirit…

* Remember this that the body becomes inactive or inaffective to sin once the old man has been dealt with why, it's a instrument something that does what it's told.

** If your body is still an instrument for sin then there is something wrong, fast and pray God will show you the truth, just like he showed me..



_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/7/19 21:34Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

PW wrote: ////Those who are seeking a one-time experiental death blow to the flesh thinking it will solve all their sin problems, will be sorely disappointed. It doesn't exist, apart from the teachings of gnosticism. ////

Would you please show evidence for this teaching being a gnostic teaching.



 2013/7/19 22:42Profile









 Re:

And they shall not teach every man his fellow-citizen, And every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: For all shall know me, From the least to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And their sins will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

American Standard Version (1995) (Heb 8:11–13)


For the law having a shadow of the good things to come, not the very image of the things, can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect them that draw nigh. Else would they not have ceased to be offered because the worshippers, having been once cleansed, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance made of sins year by year. For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, But a body didst thou prepare for me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hadst no pleasure: Then said I, Lo, I am come (In the roll of the book it is written of me) To do thy will, O God. Saying above, Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein (the which are offered according to the law), then hath he said, Lo, I am come to do thy will. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


American Standard Version (1995) (Heb 10:1–10)


A careful reading of these two passages of scripture makes it clear what is being spoken of. It is not a claim that a person cannot sin, or that the sacrifice spoken herein rendered a person incapable of sin, or even that a person cannot after believing into this sacrifice….christ' own body……will have no more awareness of their sins when they do sin…….it is all before God in the sight of men. It is all Godward for the benefit of men. None of it has to do with the man per se it is all to do with the man in relation to God. The "being sanctified" is before God, the sanctifier is God and the means of sanctification is the shed blood of Christ intentionally given……..being a physical sacrifice in His own body………it is none to do with a day to day walk by faith save in that this wonderful reality which the Spirit has borne witness to in our own consciences now makes it possible for the one who has lass hold of it to come before the Father in heaven with confidence. This coming before the Father speaks of reality and not theology. It is not a dead thing it is a living reality or else it is vanity. Those who are pressing this error which is again at the heart of some posts and polite rebellion ought to know that to do so will in the end cost them. It will be pressed and it will have its outcome. That too is real and not theology.

To say that one is prone to temptation is a euphemism. It ought to read I am a sinner.

 2013/7/20 2:36









 Re:

Quote:
Would you please show evidence for this teaching being a gnostic teaching.



If you have such authority to ask then why do you not tell us what gnosticism itself is. Before you can ask such a question you ought to be able to comprehend what the thing is. Not its particular manifestations, whether in those who take the name of Christ, or less, in occultist who are caught up in the same deceiving spirit, but rather it true and real meaning.

 2013/7/20 2:41
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Quote

Roman 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Let’s amplify the verse to see if we can gain a deeper understanding:
Rom 6:6 We know that our old (unrenewed) self was nailed to the cross with Him in order that [our] body [which is the instrument] of sin might be made ineffective and inactive for evil, that we might no longer be the slaves of sin.


Scripture says "the body of sin might be destroyed". I do not think that this is referring to "our body which is the instrument of sin". but rather to Christ Himself taking the body of Sin to the cross in His own body and triumphing over it. It is not speaking of our individual physical bodies.

As for gnosticism, that started in the garden, where the adversary said "ye shall be as gods' .
He is still pushing this today, and many are listening to his lies

David


_________________
david

 2013/7/20 4:00Profile









 Re:

I have found this definition of Gnosticism :

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Gnosticism

"The word gnosticism comes from the Greek word for knowledge, gnosis (γνῶσις), referring to the idea that there is special, hidden mysticism (esoteric knowledge) that only a few possess. The occult nature of Gnostic teaching and the fact that much of the evidence for that teaching comes from attacks by orthodox Christians makes it difficult to be precise about Gnostic systems.

The word Gnosticism is also used to describe many modern sects. However, their doctrines have sometimes little to do with ancient Gnosticism, and there has always been a great deal of diversity with gnosticism."

It would be useful to know exactly, which type is being referred to.

 2013/7/20 4:43









 Re:

"The Wesleyan Church is a Protestant, evangelical, holiness denomination with a rich heritage. We see it as our special mission to emphasize the message of "full salvation from all sin." We teach that a victorious Christian life is possible for all believers through the experience of both forgiveness of sins and the fullness of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

Around the world Wesleyan churches and missions are now found in over 90 nations. In 2012, worldwide Sunday morning worship attendance was 475,000 persons in more than 5,000 congregations. Worldwide total membership was 370,000. There were more than 1,700 local churches in the United States and Canada, with 122,000 total members and an average of 221,335 in Sunday morning services.

Five colleges and universities are supported by the denomination in the United States and Canada: Houghton College (New York), Indiana Wesleyan University (Indiana), Southern Wesleyan University (South Carolina), Oklahoma Wesleyan University (Oklahoma), and Kingswood University (New Brunswick, Canada)."

http://www.wesleyan.org/history

All are Gnostic? And this is only one branch. Included is the Church of the Nazarene and many others.

 2013/7/20 4:55









 Re:

Here is the first gnostic words recorded in human history. The first terrible thing to understand about this gnostic statement is that it is true.

“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”


The first terrible thing to understand about this gnostic statement is that in its form it is a true saying.

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil…………."


Gnosis linguistically may well mean knowledge. Or if your prefer gnosis may well mean "to know". However it is not the knowing which carries the precise danger, if that knowing is according to obedience to God, it is the belief that in knowing one is changed. It is a devilish trap into which anyone can easily step. From whence does knowledge come?

In the ancient world of Egypt, Assyria and Babylon gnosis is called wisdom. In ancient greece wisdom is synonymous with all acquired knowledge and this includes material knowledge. Pythagoras who was educated by his own determination for nearly 40 years in the ancient world of Egypt, Assyria and Chaldea, made a rational and uniquely western link between sorceric knowledge, previously called wisdom or sophos, and laid a foundation for Philosophy. He is the first to use the term philosophy and he used it in specific meaning, to equate to a love of sophos (wisdom) for its own sake and not for gain, commercially or politically but for self development. The pinnacle of this development of oneself for neither good nor evil (moral) approbation is the same in meaning as the first usage of the greek term logos. It means to become a god. To posses all knowledge and to be therefore like the gods.

The ancient (Egyptian, Assyrian and Chaldean) term sophos which previously meant wisdom could be equally applied to evil as well as good intentions regardless as to the validity and source of the knowledge acquired by means of esoteric and physical means. This whole process of the merging of material knowledge for gain and profit in the ancient world of Egypt, Assyria and Chaldea, finds in greek philosophy a schism or an effect which presses the individual so inclined to labour esoterically and thereby seemingly selflessly, making of its adherents a person to be admired and cherished. Hence why greek philosophy is always so appealing because of its seeming nobility of purpose. This is also why we have the spurious distinction between so-called black and white occult arts.

In the new testament the Apostle John, writing in the last years of the first century identified several realities which taken together defeat of themselves the consequence of gnosis held for personal development. These are:


Christ Himself is the Logos of God.

He who is born again of Christ cannot sin.

Nevertheless We sin daily.

If we walk in the light as He is in the light then the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. [No confession required]

If we do sin, we can confess our sins and He {the Father} is just and righteous to forgive us our sins. [confession required]

"I write these things in order that you might know that you have eternal life"

"That which we have seen with our eyes, which we have handled, concerning the word of life" The physical reality of Christ [Logos].

Separate any of these sayings or believe any one of them and not all of them and you have the basis for gnostic heresy.

It stands to reason therefore that we have to ask from whence did we come to believe any one of these precious truths.


Gnosticism at its heart carries in its folds a realisation that much of the knowledge which is derived from gnostic practises comes by way of lesser gods, rather than directly from the [higher] God. Amongst these lesser gods is a female spirit called sophos who is worshiped by reason of adoration of her imparted fruits [wisdom] and this adoration, when it is expressed without reservation produces a clear blasphemous and idolatrous outcome. The modern as well as ancient usage of this knowledge is expressed as the spirit of Sophia. It is sophistication [great knowledge leading to righteous outcomes] it is just one more open development of gnosis pressed into a more sophisticated delusion but in reality is no more than all of the ancient men who sought to be like God Himself, but by transaction with the sons of God. [Fallen spirits].


“If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? “If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”


New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (Jn 10:35–38).


Every reality of God is counterfeited by the enemy of our souls. Very few men can hold a pure understanding of what gnosis means intuitively without falling into its trap. It is far better to set our sights on Christ and believe the whole of scriptures and not those parts which we select according to how we are led by the prince of the power of the air.

 2013/7/20 6:49





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