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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does God love the unrepentant sinner?

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sprice
Member



Joined: 2005/9/1
Posts: 14


 Re:

Is it possible that God could hate and love at the same time? If so, then everyone's argument is moot. Please don't try to interpret what God is capable of with our own human limitations. We are called to love our enemies because God does. Doesn't that suggest something to you? There is a love of pity that God exhibits to the entire world giving grace even to those who ultimately will never repent and will always be and, in God's omniscience always have been, condemned and under His awful wrath ( hate expressed ) Most of you are assuming that if God loves someone it is because of some inherent good or worth in them. That just isn't true Biblically. God can love the most vile sinner whom He also in another sense hates. at least Scripture seems to so indicate. This makes God's grace and love all the more compelling to me. He chooses to love with great pity a lot of very wicked people, of which I was one.

 2013/6/25 10:45Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re: Finney, not for the squeamish

Shall we lay Finney aside and just go to the words of Jesus?

Should we all just abandon this conversation and lay quietly at the feet of Joel Osteen, and soak in the love and compassion and good feelings, and on the way home stop by the shelter and pick up a puppy?

Finney is not easy. But for 50 years he preached a gospel that drove people blubbering onto their faces begging God for forgiveness and rising up to be some of the most powerful witnesses for Christ since the time of the early church. Finney won the movers and shakers of society, the doctors and the lawyers and the politicians- the ones these days who get coddled and curried for favor, rarely confronted for their moral turpitude.

Reports have been around that 80% of his converts continued in Christ unlike the modern evangelical norm of less than 5%. He introduced the altar call, the challenge to get baptized in the Holy Spirit. His cry for human equality was a large part of the Christian outrage over American slavery, we all know what happened there.

Over and over again he would employ a method of ministry that produced revival, with miracles too numerous to count. He confronted everybody, from drunks in the gutter to the princes in parliaments. He like Paul in II Corinthians "destroyed arguments, and every proud obstacle that exalts itself against the knowledge of Christ."

Yes, I am a Finney fan. But for me it's a little personal.

Nearly 100 years after his death his words struck my heart and caused me to see the horror of my own sin before God. More than any other ministry I have encountered, live or on paper, Charles Finney took me to task and pushed my face to the ground before a God I had not really known before.

You can still get a copy of his autobiography on Amazon, judge for yourself.

If you do... fasten your seatbelt!


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2013/6/25 12:16Profile









 Re:

Quote:
God has from eternity resolved upon the salvation of all the elect. This we have seen. No one of this number will ever be lost. These are given to Christ from eternity, as a seed to serve Him. The conversion, perseverance, and final salvation of the elect, we have seen to be secured. Their conversion, perseverance, and salvation, are secured by means of the grace of God in Christ Jesus, prevailing through the gospel so to influence their free will as to bring about this result. The instructions, promises, threatenings, warnings, arguments of the Bible, with all the influences with which they are surrounded, are the instrumentalities by means of which the Holy Spirit converts, sanctifies, and saves them. At every step, as Fletcher acknowledges, "grace is beforehand with free will." God first comes to, and moves upon, the sinner; but the sinner does not come to and move, or attempt to move, God. God first draws, and the sinner yields. God calls and the sinner answers. The sinner would never approach God, did not God draw him. Charles Finney.



http://www.godrules.net/library/systematic/systematic48.htm

It is very interesting some of the reactions which are had over Charles Finney. I believe one of the reasons that Finney made such a strong and unyielding presentation of the Gospel is because he believed in eternal security. I hear the gasps but hey!

 2013/6/25 13:12









 Re:

His mercy to all men is incredible.

He hates the evil deeds of evil men yet stands ready to pardon as He beckons all to come to Him.

Isa_55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Yes, He can love and hate at the same time and so can we.

Like God we can hate unrighteousness and love righteousness.

Jer 3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
Jer 3:13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.

 2013/6/25 13:42









 Re:

I can see Charles Finney believing in Eternal Security.

There are two kinds of Eternal Security.

Biblical and Man-made.

One that finds eternal security in knowing and abiding in Jesus and one that believes they are safe and sound even if they don't abide in Christ. I believe Charles subscribed to the former.

 2013/6/25 13:45









 Re:

Quote:
But I could no more hope, that myself or any one else, would persevere in holiness in our best estate, even for one day or hour, if not kept by the power of God through faith, than I could hope to fly to heaven. As I have before said, there is no hope of any one's persevering, except in so far as free grace anticipates and secures the concurrence of free will. The soul must be called, and effectually called, and perpetually called, or it will not follow Christ for an hour. I say again, that by effectual calling, I do not mean an irresistible calling. I do not mean a calling that cannot, or that might not be resisted; but I do mean by an effectual calling, a calling that is not in fact resisted, a calling that does in fact secure the voluntary obedience of the soul. This is my only hope in respect to myself, or anybody else. This grace I regard as vouchsafed to me in the covenant of grace, or as a reward of Christ's obedience unto death. It is pledged to secure the salvation of those whom the Father has from eternity given to the Son. The Holy Spirit is given to them to secure their salvation, and I have no expectation that any others will ever be saved. But these, every one of them, will surely be saved. There is, there can be no hope for any others. Others are able to repent, but they will not. Others might be saved, if they would believe, and comply with the conditions of salvation, but they will not. Charles Finney

From foot of page Remarks 2

http://www.godrules.net/library/systematic/systematic51d.htm

 2013/6/25 13:53
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

I would never bash Finney. Most people could never hold a candle to his life and ministry.

Some things are hard to understand even as Peter said this about Paul's writings.

The main thing that I was saying is that some of his writings can be interpreted wrong.

I have been blessed by his ministry writings.

I also do not believe that it is some good things in us as to the reason God saved us but it is the Love and good in Him that cause Him to demonstrate that love toward us in while still sinners Christ died for us.

 2013/6/25 13:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:
The salvation of the saints is not certain by any kind or degree of certainty that renders their salvation or their damnation any more impossible, than it renders impossible any future acts of sin or obedience. Consequently, it is not certain in such a sense as to afford the least encouragement for hope of salvation in sin, any more than a certainty that a farmer would raise a crop upon condition of his diligent, and timely, and persevering use of the appropriate means, would encourage him to neglect those means. If the farmer had a knowledge of the certainty with its conditions, it would be no temptation to neglect the means; but, on the other hand, this knowledge would operate as a powerful incentive to the required use of them. So neither can the knowledge of the certainty of the salvation of the saints, with the condition of it, be to them a temptation to live in sin; but, on the contrary, this knowledge must act as a powerful incentive to the exercise of confidence in God, and perseverance in holiness unto the end. So neither can the certainty that the necessary means will be used, afford any encouragement to neglect the use of them in the case of man's salvation, any more than the revealed certainty that a farmer will sow his field and have a crop, would encourage him to neglect to sow. The known certainty of both the means and the end, with an understanding of the moral nature of the certainty, has no natural tendency to beget presumption and neglect; but, on the contrary, to beget a diligent, and cheerful, and confident use of the necessary means. Charles Finney



http://www.godrules.net/library/systematic/systematic47d.htm


If read straightforwardly there is nothing to condemn. It is the plain truth. So far as eternity is concerned it is the plain truth.

 2013/6/25 14:18









 Re:

Sidewalk wrote shall we just lay Funny aside and go to the words of Jesus. And I say "yes". Why not? Why does this forum exalt men and their theology over the pure milk of the word itsekf?

The persecuted cry for the word and nothing but the word. In places like N..Korea any believer will risk even death to own a copy of the scriptures. In places such as Eritrea imprisoned believers find comfort from verses printed on scaps on scraps of paper.

If we are imprisoned for our faith in Jesus will be comforted by the writings of Charles Funny or John Calvin or Joel Olstein. Or will it be the word of God?

Bearmaster.

 2013/6/25 14:25
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

So neither can the knowledge of the certainty of the salvation of the saints, with the condition of it, be to them a temptation to live in sin; but, on the contrary, this knowledge must act as a powerful incentive to the exercise of confidence in God, and perseverance in holiness unto the end. So neither can the certainty that the necessary means will be used, afford any encouragement to neglect the use of them in the case of man's salvation, any more than the revealed certainty that a farmer will sow his field and have a crop, would encourage him to neglect to sow. The known certainty of both the means and the end, with an understanding of the moral nature of the certainty, has no natural tendency to beget presumption and neglect; but, on the contrary, to beget a diligent, and cheerful, and confident use of the necessary means. Charles Finney






The man who has faith in God's certainty will carry out the conditions to completion.

 2013/6/25 14:30Profile





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