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proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 HezWelling

Hi HezWelling

HezWelling wrote ///and when i was saying "flu shot didnt work, shrug"....thats exactly what i meant....shrug....oh well....///

This is not an isolated incident and the reason is because the flue shot is only 62% effective this year according to the CDC the AP says that this is consistent with the effectivness of the flu shot in other years.

62% reminds me of a report card in my opinion it is not very good

 2013/1/13 15:50Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: ccchhhrrriiisss

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///some points that you have made for which I would agree necessitate further study (e.g. claims that the original chicken pox vaccine made from the cells of an aborted fetus).///

I thought you new all about vaccines??

from the National Network for Immunization Information (NNii) which by the way is not anti vaccines.

Human Fetal Diploid Cells

Human diploid cells are batches of human cells that are grown in a laboratory. Unlike cancer cells, they have the same number of chromosomes as normal human cells.

Certain diploid cell strains are valuable in vaccine manufacture because these cells can be used for a very long period of time in the laboratory and are a reliable means by which many viruses that infect humans can be successfully and easily grown. Vaccines prepared in human diploid cells have proven to be very safe over the past several decades.

Two different strains of human diploid cell cultures made from fetuses have been used extensively for vaccine production for decades. One was developed in the United States in 1961 (called WI-38) and the other in the United Kingdom in 1966 (called MRC-5).

WI-38 came from lung cells from a female fetus of 3-months gestation and MRC-5 was developed from lung cells from a 14-week-old male fetus. Both fetuses were intentionally aborted, but neither was aborted for the purpose of obtaining diploid cells.123. The fetal tissues that eventually became WI-38 and the MRC-5 cell cultures were removed from fetuses that were dead. The cellular biologists who made the cell cultures did not induce the abortions.

These two cell strains have been growing under laboratory conditions for more than 35 years. The cells are merely the biological system in which the viruses are grown. These cell strains do not and cannot form a complete organism and do not constitute a potential human being. The cells reproduce themselves, so there is no need to abort additional fetuses to sustain the culture supply. Viruses are collected from the diploid cell cultures and then processed further to produce the vaccine itself.

The WI-38 and MRC-5 cell cultures have been used to prepare hundreds of millions of doses of vaccines, preventing millions of cases of rubella, hepatitis A, varicella and rabies. In the United States, only one of these diseases can be prevented with an FDA-licensed vaccine not grown in human diploid cells. This is the RabAvert brand of rabies vaccine manufactured by Chiron Corporation.4

Some of the vaccines that are produced in human diploid cells might now be able to be prepared in alternative types of cell cultures. Some of these cell cultures were not available or were not considered suitable for use in vaccines when the original vaccines were developed. However, there is no guarantee that vaccines grown in these alternative cell lines would be as safe and effective as currently licensed vaccines and development is likely to be extremely costly. Thus, there is little incentive for vaccine manufacturers to develop and test new vaccines when an existing licensed vaccine is known to be both safe and effective.

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/vaccine-components/human-fetal-links-some-vaccines

 2013/1/13 15:55Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re: dear Brother Chris

Hi Neil,

Quote:

ike i said before, i didnt mean to start a fight, or contention.....and when i was saying "flu shot didnt work, shrug"....thats exactly what i meant....shrug....oh well....



I know that I didn't mean for my initial post to be taken as a point of contention either. I understand that your flu shot didn't work in the sense that you still contracted the flu. I simply wanted to point out the probable reason for this (e.g. your vaccine was probably meant to handle a different, non-mutated strain of influenza that was unable to counter the particular strain that you contracted).

However, it is possible that the vaccination that you received DID work against the strain for which it was designed to protect you from. However, we couldn't know because you probably didn't contract that particular strain of influenza. I hope that makes a little more sense. I guess that the confusion is because I just didn't make it clear enough that an influenza vaccine doesn't close the door of possibility of contracting the flu, but offers greater opportunity of protection from the particular strains of flu for which it was designed.

Of course, this is all moot in the sense that you still had the flu -- regardless of which strain caused you to go to the hospital for care.

As for the house:

That is fantastic! I know a missionary who has desired to open a place (a sort of "halfway house") where others -- ministers and their families in particular -- can come for a time to seek God for direction. If anything is needed in this day, it is prayer and "closet" places to pray away from the hustle and bustle of this present darkness in a fallen world.

I was just speaking with my wife about why summer camps and "retreats" seem to have a good effect on providing a place where others (especially youth) can meet the Lord. In keeping with what was said in the thread about "a generation of narcissists," I think that it might be because such remote places provide a haven away from this world so that those things are more readily shut out.

In the solitude of His creation, I think that we can often realize how small we are in the grand scheme of things but also how big our God is. Moreover, we realize that, as small as we might be, we have the perfect and complete attention of the only One that really matters in life.

May the Lord bless you with this endeavor!


_________________
Christopher

 2013/1/13 16:05Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi ccchhhrrriiisss

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///No offense was meant and there are certainly some points that you have made for which I would agree necessitate further study (e.g. claims that the original chicken pox vaccine made from the cells of an aborted fetus///

I did not write this //the original chicken pox vaccine made from the cells of an aborted fetus//

I did write however write /If you guys want to give your children the (MMR),(chickenpox) and other vaccines that have been produced from human diploid cell cultures that are originated from aborted fetus (called WI-38) and (MRC-5) and belive such a pharmakeia concoction is from God, than go ahead but do not try to infringe or rather mandate your opinion on to others./

This is consistant with the link that you posted, maybe I should change a couple of words so you do not pick it apart

/If you guys want to give your children the (MMR),(chickenpox) and other vaccines that have been produced (((in))) human diploid cell cultures (((whoms lines))) originated from aborted fetus (called WI-38) and (MRC-5) and belive such a pharmakeia concoction is from God, than go ahead but do not try to infringe or rather mandate your opinion on to others./





 2013/1/13 16:13Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Proudpapa,

Quote:

I thought you new all about vaccines??



I never claimed that I know "all about vaccines." I am familiar with them in part because of personal interest, research, education and some requirements for work (unrelated to the pharmaceutical industry) that cause me to review peer-reviewed papers.

I will look over the article that you provided from the website. I hope that you will also and review the one that I included as well. Here is the text of it:

Quote:

Vaccines DO NOT Contain Fetal Tissue
by Dr. Jay L. Wile

Of the many lies told by anti-vaccination advocates, this is one of the worst, because it hits on a real moral issue. However, anyone with a modicum of training in biology will tell you that it is impossible for vaccines (or any other injected medicine) to contain human tissue. The reason is simple: if you are injected with anything containing tissue from another person, your body will immediately recognize it as an invader and begin attacking it. This immune response is often quite radical and can easily lead to death! This is why blood from a donor to a recipient must be carefully matched before the recipient can receive it. Thus, there is no human tissue of any kind in vaccines. Unfortunately, the anti-vaccination movement (and even some naive pro- life groups) will try to convince the uninformed that vaccines contain tissue from aborted babies and that abortions must be continually done to supply this tissue to the "evil" drug companies. This is, of course, a bald-faced lie. Unfortunately, this lie is particularly evil, in that it targets a person's morally correct view that abortion is murder.

For any lie to be successful, there must be a grain of truth in it. This lie is no exception. There is a tangential connection between some vaccines and abortion. The Hepatitis A vaccine, the MMR vaccine, and the chicken pox vaccine all contain viruses (weakened or inactivated) that were grown in human cells. A virus must be given a medium in which to propagate. Many vaccines use viruses that can propagate in several kinds of mammal cells, but some viruses are so specific that they can only propagate in human cells. The viruses used in the above-listed vaccines are that specific. Thus, they must be grown in human cells.

Where do the vaccine companies get the cells for these vaccines? They get them from companies like Coriell Cell Repositories, 403 Haddon Avenu, Camden, New Jersey 08103, 800-752-3805. This company has many cell lines, which are cultures of self-perpetuating cells. Each culture of cells is continually reproducing, making more cells. Those cells are sold to researchers, drug companies, and other medical technology firms. The specific cell lines used in vaccines are the MRC-5 and WI-38 cell lines1, and they have been supplying medical research of all types for more than 35 years. Where do these cell lines come from? That's where the grain of truth in this lie comes from. Both of these cell lines were cultured from cells taken from two abortions, one (MRC-5) that was performed in September,19662 and one (WI-38) that was performed in July, 19623.

Now that you have learned the facts, we can discuss the moral issues involved. Is it immoral to use these cell lines to make vaccines? The answer is definitely not. You might think that the cell lines are somehow "tainted" because they come from abortions; however, think about it for a moment. Abortion is murder. A person who claims to be a physician purposefully kills an innocent, unprotected person. That is evil, and there is no doubt about it. However, let's consider another murder, shall we? Let's suppose one of your loved ones was shot in a robbery attempt. You rush your loved one to the hospital, but it is too late. Your loved one dies. This is another murder, and it is just as evil.

Suppose that the doctors rush in and tell you that there is a young boy in the next room who needs a heart immediately, or he will die. The doctors have analyzed your loved one's blood and found that your loved one is a perfect match for the dying boy. Would you donate your loved one's heart to the boy? I certainly would. It would be a tragedy that my loved one was murdered, but at least this would be a "silver lining" in that dark cloud. At least my loved one's death would mean that a young boy could live.

The cells that were taken from the two aborted babies more than 35 years ago are much like my loved one's heart. Two innocent babies were killed. However, they were able to donate something that has been used not only to make vaccines, but in many medical research projects over the years. Thus, these cells have been saving millions of lives for almost two generations! Although the babies were clearly murdered, the fact that their cells have been saving lives is at least a silver lining in the dark cloud of their tragic murder.

It is important to note that Federal law is quite specific in the matter of donated fetal tissue. The law does not allow for an abortion to be performed for the purpose of donating tissue, and the law even explicitly states that the abortion procedure cannot be changed in order to collect the tissue4. It also prohibits the baby's family or the doctor from profiting from the donation5. Thus, these cells were truly donated, just as any organ might be donated. If a person is an organ donor and he or she is murdered, it is not immoral for you to use those organs. Once again, at least something good will come out of the murder if those organs are used.

Now that you know the facts, you can see why I consider this lie so devious. Anti-vaccination advocates play on a person's proper moral indignation about abortion, claiming that if a person gets vaccinated, he or she is supporting the abortion industry. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. Whether or not you get vaccinated, the same number of abortions will be performed, as abortions are not necessary to make new vaccines. In addition, you are actually dishonoring the memories of those two precious babies if you refuse vaccination, because you are refusing the one good thing that has come from their murder. At the same time, you are putting your life and the lives of your loved ones in jeopardy by refusing one of the greatest protections that medicine has ever developed! How could anyone call himself pro-life if he dishonors the memory of those who have been murdered while risking the lives of those he loves?

Interestingly enough, a June 9, 2005 statement from the Pontifical Academy for Life (the Vatican's official voice in the area of abortion/right-to-life) comes to essentially the same conclusion. Even though some organizations have mischaracterized the document as condemning the use of such vaccines6, the document, in fact, says quite the opposite. It says that when an alternative vaccine which has no connection whatsoever to abortion is available, parents should use it. There is no question that this is the moral thing to do. In addition, when there is no alternative available, parents should object by demonstration, etc. so as to force manufactures to come up with an alternative.

However, as for actually using the vaccines that have no alternatives, the document clearly says that parents can do so in order to protect their children and the community. The English translation of the document (originally written in Italian) says, "As regards the vaccines without an alternative, the need to contest so that others may be prepared must be reaffirmed, as should be the lawfulness of using the former in the meantime insomuch as is necessary in order to avoid a serious risk not only for one's own children but also, and perhaps more specifically, for the health conditions of the population as a whole - especially for pregnant women."7 Note what this official Roman Catholic document says. It says that parents should CONTEST the vaccines so as to force the manufactures to find new ways to make them, but UNTIL THAT HAPPENS, parents can still use the vaccines that have no alternative, because it will allow them to avoid serious risk to their children, and more importantly, to the population as a whole. The moral good done by the vaccine, then, outweighs any moral evil when it comes to actually USING the vaccine. The statement clearly says the MAKING of the vaccine is bad, but the USE of it is not. In fact, the document specifically mentions rubella as something that should be vaccinated against, even though there is no alternative vaccine - "Moreover, we find, in such a case, a proportional reason, in order to accept the use of these vaccines in the presence of the danger of favouring the spread of the pathological agent, due to the lack of vaccination of children. This is particularly true in the case of vaccination against German measles."7

Because some organizations have tried to mischaracterize this statement, the Catholic News Service (CNS) produced an article that quotes Msgr. Jacques Suaudeau, a medical doctor and official at the Pontifical Academy for Life, as saying, "If the health of the child or of the whole population [is at risk], the parents should accept having their kid be vaccinated if there is no alternative." 8 Because some organizations clearly do not like the Roman Catholic church officially saying that the use of these vaccines is morally acceptable, they have asked the Pontifical Academy for Life to change its statement. However, CNS reports that Msgr. Jacques Suaudeau said the document "could not be changed" because it accurately reflected church teaching.8 Despite what you might read, then, even the Vatican supports the use of vaccines that have a tangential relationship to abortion, as long as no alternative vaccines are available.

REFERENCES

1. Merck and Co, VAQTA (Hepatitis A), M-M-R-II, VARIVAX product inserts 908-423-1000; GLAXO Smithkline Heptatitis A vaccine product insert, 888-825-5249

2. Coriell Cell Repositories - Product AG05965

3. Coriell Cell Repositories - Product AG06814

4. Public Law 103-43; June 10, 1993, National Institutes Of Health Revitalization Act Of 1993, Title I - General Provisions Regarding Title IV Of Public Health Service Act, Part G, Sec. 498A: c-4

5. Public Law 103-43; June 10, 1993, National Institutes Of Health Revitalization Act Of 1993, Title I - General Provisions Regarding Title IV Of Public Health Service Act, Part G, Sec. 498B: a

6. http://www.cogforlife.org/vaticanrelease.htm

7. http://www.immunize.org/concerns/vaticandocument.htm

8. http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504240.htm



However, I would like to point out that all of this back-and-forth is getting somewhat beside the point. My primary point was initially, and still is, to state that there is much evidence that demonstrates the effectiveness of a particular influenza vaccination in regard to the non-mutated strain of influenza for which it was designed and, most importantly, to urge caution in regard to the influenza vaccine. I am not upset with you or the caution that you urge. Nor do I believe that we should be upset when anyone else urges caution about the claims that we (or others) make about such matters.

I hope that this makes more sense. The Lord bless you.


_________________
Christopher

 2013/1/13 16:14Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi ccchhhrrriiisss, you are a very educated and smart individual of which I am not ,according to the artical that you posted that plays on words is this statement by me inaccurate ???

If you guys want to give your children the (MMR),(chickenpox) and other vaccines that have been produced (((in))) human diploid cell cultures (((whoms lines))) originated from aborted fetus (called WI-38) and (MRC-5) and belive such a pharmakeia concoction is from God, than go ahead but do not try to infringe or rather mandate your opinion on to others.


 2013/1/13 16:21Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi proudpapa,

I am not entirely sure what it is that you are asking of me. I already touched upon what you said in this statement. I accept that you are urging caution about promoting certain vaccines. I simply urged others to research the claims made about ALL vaccines -- including the ones that elicited the discussion (influenza vaccines).

As for the claims that you raise about the chicken pox vaccine: As I said, I would need to research these particular claims further. However, I have made it quite clear that I am not mandating my opinion about vaccines to others. I am just urging caution about the claims that we make lest we find ourselves unwittingly uttering things that don't pass the muster of truth.

Like Neil said, we will give an account to God for the things that we say in private, in public and on message boards like this. Our goal should be to have a clean hands, a pure heart and a mouth that utters (or types) truth. Please do not think that I am contending with your claim in this particular statement. I am not. I go back to my original post in simply urging caution about ANYTHING that we publicly claim about vaccines, medicine or any other issue.


_________________
Christopher

 2013/1/13 16:36Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi ccchhhrrriiisss

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote //Hi proudpapa,
I am not entirely sure what it is that you are asking of me. I already touched upon what you said in this statement. I accept that you are urging caution about promoting certain vaccines. I simply urged others to research the claims made about ALL vaccines -- including the ones that elicited the discussion (influenza vaccines). //

What I am asking is simply this, according to the artical that you posted, which I would asume that you have read and have a better Comprehension off than what I do, is my statement that I wrote correct or is it incorrect?? If you feel it to be incorrect how might I word it so as though it is more accurate according to your judgment.

my original statement was this

/If you guys want to give your children the (MMR),(chickenpox) and other vaccines that have been produced from human diploid cell cultures that are originated from aborted fetus (called WI-38) and (MRC-5) and belive such a pharmakeia concoction is from God, than go ahead but do not try to infringe or rather mandate your opinion on to others./

I added some correctiones not as though this statement was inacurate but because you seemed to want to nit pick at the details so I reworded it to say this

/If you guys want to give your children the (MMR),(chickenpox) and other vaccines that have been produced (((in))) human diploid cell cultures (((whoms lines))) originated from aborted fetus (called WI-38) and (MRC-5) and belive such a pharmakeia concoction is from God, than go ahead but do not try to infringe or rather mandate your opinion on to others./

ccchhhrrriiisss had wrote ///I was simply urging caution before we give place to anything less than pure in the "well" of our dialogue. No offense was meant and there are certainly some points that you have made for which I would agree necessitate further study (e.g. claims that the original chicken pox vaccine made from the cells of an aborted fetus).///

I do not know what e.g. stands for but this is not what I posted, what I posted was fairly accurate even according to your artical, reliezing that you where going to nit pick it, I changed some of the wording as I clearly and openly have demonstrated. If you want to continue to nit pick my statement, I am open to any corrections as to make it more accurate but do not undermine it by rewording what I have wrote and than posting an artical that plays along with your rewording of my words.

I have been using caution with all of my claims but you have been continualy nit picking, twisting and down playing my claimes

 2013/1/13 17:40Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re: HezWelling

______________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
"62% reminds me of a report card in my opinion it is not very good
______________________________________________________________



And if that would have been your average on your report card I suspect there may have been some disciplinary action takes by a parent upon a cringing child???


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2013/1/13 18:07Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi proudpapa,

I am not "nitpicking" at the details. On the contrary, I am urging caution regarding all that is being claimed or presented.

As for your statement: I already told you (twice) that further research is needed regarding the claims that you made in your initial (and revised) statement regarding vaccines. You made claims about the chickenpox and other vaccines of which I would need to spend some time to examine. I hope that you will trust that I won't just use Google as my "guide" (so to speak), but that I will examine the specific claims that you made in this regard before I make any conclusion (if I ever arrive to that point).

Perhaps you could assist in this by citing the medical, scientific research that you examined or peer-reviewed journals and other sources that you consulted before arriving to a conclusion about the matter prior to making this particular statement. As for the "believe such a pharmakeia concoction is from God" -- this is a straw man because the statement was never made.

I wouldn't claim that any particular vaccine was "from God" any more than I would argue that the specific formulas for plastics used in the servers used to hold the messages contained on SermonIndex are "from God." I simply mentioned how vaccines are constructed and documented to counter various yet specific strains of influenza (or polio, etc...) for which they are designed.

However, please do not mistake the urging of caution about claims that you made (which I could copy, paste and highlight if you like) with some sort of "nitpicking," "twisting" or "downplaying" of any claims that you felt the authority to claim regarding vaccines. I initially urged simple caution over what it is that we claim in a public forum...made a statement about the documented effectiveness of vaccines...and then it meandered into a debate over other things related to vaccinations.


_________________
Christopher

 2013/1/13 18:11Profile





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