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proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: MrBillPro

good word MrBillPro

 2013/1/12 21:20Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Brother proudpapa,

You wrote:

Quote:

It really does not matter to me how safe the CDC says that vaccines are, as I pointed out in my last post There is a revolving door between big pharmaceutical and the CDC.



...and, then...

Quote:

My warning included no conspiracy theory no inaccuracy no myth.



What is this "revolving door" that you speak of? Yes, there may be individuals who have worked on both sides of the aisle (so to speak). However, it seems that you are suggesting that there is some sort of ulterior motives between oversight agencies and those companies that create vaccines. That is a very contentious statement that I contend to be a myth. How do I know? I have firsthand experience working with individuals who work in those agencies. Those who work in the health industry are bound by their own endeavor to work for good health as well as work in plain sight under the oversight of the government.

Quote:

Listen if people want to drink the kool-Aid that is fine with me, I am just giving facts of why I personaly am not going to drink the Kool-Aid



I am the LAST person who would purposely drink or spread bad "Kool-Aid." However, I am simply cautioning you from spreading the claims that you have made without first having researched those claims and then citing the evidence upon which you have used to validate the statements that you make. Also, Kool-Aid is often much more easily identifiable than "bad water" from a bad well. An unsuspecting person can contract a parasite like giardia from clear and tasteless well or tap water if they aren't careful. Sometimes, it takes some research (and a microscope) to determine the presence of something dangerous or impure.

Quote:

Listen just because we do not come to the same conclusion has nothing to do with lack of research, perhaps You are more researched on this subject than I am, I do not know but what I do know is that their are people more researched than both of us on the topic that hold both positiones on this topic.

Listin they told those vetnam soliders do not worry this herbacide that we are pouring all over you is harmless it might cause some skin irritation some small side effects but that is all. and than after they got home with all there problems it took them years of fighting before the truth of how harmful agent orange was would be admitted.



Again: This second paragraph seems to indicate that you are insinuating that vaccines fall under the same cloud as lies that may (or may not) have been told about Agent Orange. This is called "conspiracy."

Now, I have stated from the get-go that there are undoubtedly side effects with vaccines. Those are called "calculated risks" because the risks are very low and are much more favorable when compared with the risk of NOT being vaccinated. Uneducated people in the early 20th Century fought the polio vaccine until polio numbers fell so drastically.

Unfortunately, the flu is comprised of multiple mutated strains that behave in the same similar way. So, multiple vaccinations are needed to combat the spread of the flu. However, the ability of the flu vaccine to combat and prohibit the contraction or spread of that particular strain is beyond dispute.

The difficulty with flu vaccinations comes with the size and scope of the Earth and the availability of preventive vaccinations prior to the strain becoming widespread. Yes, there is always concern with the "preservative" ingredients that go into vaccines and possible side effects. However, it is never as risky or dire as the "conspiracy theorists" claim. Moreover, the flu vaccinations often hold the same ingredients (outside of the active vaccine) that has largely eradicated polio in the Western world.

If you have issue with certain "ingredients" in vaccines, then I suggest that prior to spreading it on a Revival website, you should perform a great deal of research before making an announcement or fielding a suggestive purpose regarding that announcement.

It would be a dreadful thing to realize that we were spreading mis-truths, half-truths or incorrect insinuations about something that could potentially save the life of another human being. All that I am urging for is caution before we spread some of the things that we mention on a public board. They have a tendency to fuel speculation or, as I noted, "conspiracy." Alternative health practitioners often make negative claims through "selective" research and favorable claims regarding alternative solutions. However, they often cite statistical evidence in studies that make favorable claims for the things that they sell or peddle on websites or in stores and neglect the preponderance of clear, peer-reviewed (aka "peer-scrutinized") studies on such issues.

Also, many local research hospitals conduct some study into the production and research of vaccinations. I have visited some of them. You can even see the effectiveness (and listen to the purpose of such things) while looking through a microscope! It can be a highly educational experience! Also, PubMed offers a plethora of research into the viability of vaccines.

Remember: Such medical and pharmaceutical research isn't all favorable. It is typically conducted by groups, agencies, doctors and scientists who have no invested interest in the outcome other than to find mathematical effectiveness/ineffectiveness, side effects or other issues. Most medical research is more skeptical and highly scrutinized than we often give it credit. However, each word is not only scrutinized by fellow scientists and agencies, but by peers in the field as well.


_________________
Christopher

 2013/1/12 21:37Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re: Goshen Nurses Lose Jobs After Refusing Flu Vaccination

Here is the link where I originally read this news article.

http://news.yahoo.com/nurses-fired-refusing-flu-shot-224637902--abc-news-health.html;_ylt=A2KJ3CerKvJQYzEAVlbQtDMD

You might find the comments informative and entertaining: there are only 28,375 comments - should keep you occupied for a while. :-)

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2013/1/12 22:35Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi ccchhhrrriiisss

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///Brother proudpapa///
well that is a nicer way of addressing me than your post before where you addressed me as ///Hi proud,/// I was not offended It can be expected with my choice of nick

ccchhhrrriiisss posted out of context my statement //My warning included no conspiracy theory no inaccuracy no myth.//

Listin ccchhhrrriiisss this statement was a direct reply to your statement that you wrote
///Again, I think that it is important to truly perform research before warning individuals about some of the ingredients in vaccines. There are many myths and even conspiracy theories that are spread about such things. We want to be careful not to spread things that aren't true or those things that pollute the accuracy of the issues themselves.///

that is the reason I posted what you wrote and than replied directly to what you wrote // My warning included no conspiracy theory no inaccuracy no myth. ((((I simply labled some of the ingredients and facts concerning those ingredients.))))//

it was a response directly involving what you called the 'warning' I gave of the ingredients and facts concerning those ingredients.

by taking one sentance of mine out of its context, it would be as though I was a lier but look back I was more than clear that I was specificaly speaking about some of the ingredients in Which I gave accurate unarguable non conspiracy facts about. The context was Clearly Speaking about the ingredients, If you can find anything that I wrote about the ingredients as being inaccurate or conspired let me know.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///What is this "revolving door" that you speak of? Yes, there may be individuals who have worked on both sides of the aisle (so to speak). However, it seems that you are suggesting that there is some sort of ulterior motives between oversight agencies and those companies that create vaccines. That is a very contentious statement that I contend to be a myth. How do I know? I have firsthand experience working with individuals who work in those agencies. Those who work in the health industry are bound by their own endeavor to work for good health as well as work in plain sight under the oversight of the government.///

It is not a ((may)) it is a fact there are individuals who have worked on both sides of the aisle. and not as small insignificants, for instance I posted That the CDC director from 2002 to 2009 is now as of January 25, 2010 president of Merck Vaccines
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aHlUoQXknNMU
this is not an isolated incident.

By your opinion it would appear that you would not believe that a former director of the CDC would still have friends and ties within the CDC that would be a benifit for a position as a president of Merck Vaccines and a benifit for Merk altogather.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///I am the LAST person who would purposely drink or spread bad "Kool-Aid." However, I am simply cautioning you from spreading the claims that you have made without first having researched those claims and then citing the evidence upon which you have used to validate the statements that you make. Also, Kool-Aid is often much more easily identifiable than "bad water" from a bad well. An unsuspecting person can contract a parasite like giardia from clear and tasteless well or tap water if they aren't careful. Sometimes, it takes some research (and a microscope) to determine the presence of something dangerous or impure.///

I do not doubt your Sincerity but your bad water bad well senerio is precisely why I hold to the view that I do.

What Claimes have I made that are inacurate?? I have done nothing except give the reasons for why I believe How I do as far as the revolving door it is a fact rather or not it effects the outcome of things I personaly believe it probably does, you personaly believe that it does not. but regardless it exist.

Listen research and a microscope does not always conclude the truth, Their are many educated men that put their trust in research and a microscope that are completely assured that the earth is billiones of years old and that we are descendants of pond scum. Just because I do not have a doctorate degree in this subject does not mean that I am without warrent to express Why I believe the way that I do

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///Again: This second paragraph seems to indicate that you are insinuating that vaccines fall under the same cloud as lies that may (or may not) have been told about Agent Orange. This is called "conspiracy."///

What I am insinuating can be directly understood by your bad water bad well analogy, You may call it a conspiracy if you want we all believe in what would be labled a conspiracy in one way or another, as I said earlier my no myth no conspiracy statement was directly about the ingredients. But relieze I gave facts that would insinuate, not insinuation as facts.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///Now, I have stated from the get-go that there are undoubtedly side effects with vaccines. Those are called "calculated risks" because the risks are very low and are much more favorable when compared with the risk of NOT being vaccinated. Uneducated people in the early 20th Century fought the polio vaccine until polio numbers fell so drastically.///

The problem is these calculated risks can not and do not take into account all senerioes, For instance who can determine that the mercury and formaldehyde that is directly injected into your bloodstream may not 10 or 20 years down the road cause cancer, What I see alot of is Cancer, Poisons are a major cause of cancer. You say well there is such a small amout of these ingredients but listen there is enough poision in these vaccinationes that even the CDC agrees that they may be a cause of some Guillain Barre Syndrome cases. and something that needs to be taken into account also is that vaccines are directly injected into the blood stream which makes it far worse than ingesting these poisones as by which our bodies are designed to rid of them.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///If you have issue with certain "ingredients" in vaccines, then I suggest that prior to spreading it on a Revival website, you should perform a great deal of research before making an announcement or fielding a suggestive purpose regarding that announcement. ///

Listin ccchhhrrriiisss what I wrote about the "ingredients" in vaccines, was accurate information, was it for the purpose of insinuating that they may be unsafe because of the ingredients, why yes that is how I feel but what I gave was facts. What I posted Was facts of the ingredients that are within the flu vaccine and than facts about those ingredients.


We will not come to agreement on this topic it goes back to your bad water bad well analogy, It is whom we trust my trust is not in big corporations and government agencies of which you seem to believe has our best interest in mind, I feel that history and reality prove the both are as what you call bad wells



















 2013/1/13 0:02Profile









 Re:

proudpapa,

I would encourage you to not bother with Chris' attempts to tear down all evidence convicting his love of the world, disagreeing, calling things uncertain, "conspiracies," or in need of more research, etc. For the last 7 years at SI he has been doing this more than anything else in the forums and it is definitely a thing he is very good at. He never follows his own advice though--never does the research and/or never has the guts to stand before the facts and to accept them as they are, but is content with twisting them in order to break others' valid stance and steadfastness in the truth. It's the same stumbling blocks over and over again that I have seen him place in many discussions here over the years. Sadly, this compromising spirit has been tolerated.

On the subject though, truly, as you have observed yourself, this generation is like Asa who sought the physicians and not the Lord in his sickness, and thus died, and not like Hezekiah, who, even though was sick unto death, and having been told of the prophet of the Lord that he would die, still "he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord..." and "beseeched" Him, and "wept sore". And the Lord heard him and healed him (2 Kings 20). But to a hardened and unbelieving people, it is certainly much easier and more than natural to seek the physicians and not the Lord in their sickness. Some even pray that the Lord uses the doctor, as if God needs the "doctors" and their pharmakeia in order to heal and as if He is not sovereign. God's people rely on God's provisions and not on the world's. How has is happened that Christians have treasured the promises of modern-day medicine more that the promises of God, thus putting their trust in the flesh--and in man, not in God? Even to the point that some would kneel before the enemies of God for deliverance (from whom?!)--and if they get what they want, they would then "magnify the Lord". Certainly, it is not the will of God that the people who have called upon His name copy-or are unaware of--the ways of the world.

Know that some people never get to agree with the truth, because they would rather believe according to their lusts and their itchy years, regardless of facts, arguments or proof. So don't be discouraged to seek that which is true, proving all things and keeping the good, for "he who seeks shall find", the Lord says.

God is not impressed with the world's "wisdom" and so called "knowledge"; He doesn't honor their credentials and will not bow down(!) before their diplomas--and neither should we. In fact, the Scripture says, "what is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God" (Luke 6:15). So I would keep away from anything--be it ways of doing things, or knowledge, or philosophy--that is too popular in the world.

 2013/1/13 0:06
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

NotMe,

Why do you feel the need to chase me around from time-to-time on SermonIndex with accusations like this? They reek of the very spiritual pride that you accuse others of having!

You get angry when I urge nothing more than "caution." It puzzles me why some people get angry at the thought of being "slow to speak" about things that they aren't entirely certain about. It is less about being "proven right" than encouraging believers to be pure in speech.

You see, the world watches us. They hear us when we speak. They read what we write. Sadly, much of the mockery that the world hurls against believers is often justified. Men who walk about boasting of their "ignorance" meander into subjects of which they try to engage in debates with learned men. We can't have it both ways. If you wish to discount "education" or "knowledge," then why do you insist on using it to validate some of the points that you try to make in certain divisive topics?

A clear conscience does not require that we ignore facts. Believers never have to fear those things. Now, there are certainly things that are incorrectly labeled as "facts." However, in a discussion about vaccinations, it is important to TELL THE TRUTH if we decide it necessary to say anything at all. And, by the way, "truth" in this instance is not based upon a few medical papers.

You have no right -- no basis -- to accuse me of "twisting" anything simply because you disagree with my urging "caution" before we make public proclamations. You did this in the past in regard to accusations uttered about Bible translations that you did not approve of. You did this in regard to certain political discourses that are uttered against the hearts of some men. Yet, I notice that you have not uttered those same discourses when they are uttered by men with whom you share their opinions about such topics.

Brother, you must repent of your vile attempt to "prove me wrong" over and over again. Time and time again, you neglect the statements and "play the man." You insinuate and insult me through many claims about how "worldly" a man that I am when I urge caution. You claim that I don't listen to my own advice and do research when, many times, I have shown it. You can point the finger at others and accuse them of longing to live "according to their lusts and their itchy ears" -- but you cannot say this about me.

You see, brother, what you fail to realize is that I long to please God more than I long to be "proven right." I long to please God more than anything in this life! I long to know Him...seek His face...and lay at His feet. You throw accusations against me without even knowing me! You do not see the times that I pray. You don't know what God has done for me. You don't know me at all -- despite your very incorrect attempts at "spiritual discernment." It hurts sometimes to read the things that you write. However, I am comforted by the fact that what you write is far from the truth and does not reflect the character as I have desired to have before the Lord.

Brother, if there is anyone who is unimpressed by my diplomas, education and "credentials," it is me. A degree can be no more than a title in a church represents. I seldom cite my own educational background here -- and never as something to "brag" about. To me, I count it as dung when compared to knowing Him. At the same time, I do not apologize for what I have learned either. Learned men can be used by God too.

So, Brother NotMe, before you go about (again) pointing the finger of "worldliness" at me, I invite you to get to know me. Give me a call if you like. Walk with me. Pray with me. Share with me. Break bread with me. However, I do ask that you refrain again from accusing me until you've done this. Yes, this is "urging caution." However, it is the caution to be pure in speech that reflects a heart that longs to be filled with the purity of seeking and knowing God.


_________________
Christopher

 2013/1/13 0:34Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi proudpapa,

I do agree that this can be a divisive topic. However, I simply wanted to say from the outset that there is much documented proof that vaccines are highly effective means of preventing the spread of certain strains of influenza. I also wanted to urge caution about making claims about such things that might not stand the preponderance of medical scrutiny.

If we are going to make accusations about dangers associated with vaccines using some of the things that you have mentioned, then can we at least also freely admit that there are many more medically established reasons as to why the CDC and FDA have approved influenza (and other) vaccines?

Please don't get me wrong: I am not "trusting" in the pharmaceutical manufacturers and government agencies. However, the medical and biological research behind their opinions in the case of vaccines is well-documented and passes scrutiny by the vast majority of doctors and scientists.

This will probably be my last post on the matter. However, I simply wanted to urge caution. It isn't to be "proven right." In fact, I would welcome being shown that I am wrong if the truth actually validated or warranted it. I am not defending the government, pharmaceuticals, doctors or scientists. I do not profit from them at all. I am simply concerned of these opinions that are uttered in the eyes of others. Yes, I am concerned about my own uttered opinions...constantly.

I do love you. It is not a phony love and the caution that I share is simply meant as an expression of the love that I have for the Body of Christ -- and even unbelievers -- that gather here. Contrary to the accusation that was uttered against me, I do not love this world. However, I do love God enough to desire absolute truthfulness whenever possible.

I do not think that there is anything wrong with acknowledging the possibility of being wrong or including disclaimers when discussing divisive, "fuzzy" or much-debated issues.

In this case, I acknowledged that there are concerns about vaccines and even cases of bad reactions and side effects. However, the overwhelming majority of studies show that side effects are rare and vaccines -- when targeted properly -- can be a noble medicinal means of diminishing viruses and diseases. Not only have they largely eradicated smallpox, polio, malaria, hookworm, rubella and dracunculiasis in the Western world, but they also have been documented to diminish the spread of influenza strains for which the vaccine has been targeted.

The Lord bless you, brother. I say this in truth and I hope that it is discerned to be from this heart that longs to see the face of God.


_________________
Christopher

 2013/1/13 1:01Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re: Goshen Nurses Lose Jobs After Refusing Flu Vaccination

My personal opinion concerning this matter is that no one should force another to take any immunizations against their will. Some vaccinations work well, others not. Then there are those who react strongly and those individuals know that. To deny them their freedom to choose flies in face of what we Americans have known.

There are too many medical procedures being marketed like any other commercial item. They appeal to your desire for health in order to sell you this procedure. There is a lot of money involved in its research/manufacture so they need to regroup their investment.

Consider the mammogram. It used to touted as essential in early breast cancer detection. They are no longer as loud and vocal in this declaration as they used to be. I just had a friend who went through a false alarm because of this. And this is not at all uncommon. And who pays?

My dad, bless his heart, used to get the flu shot and ended up getting sick, still...used to aggravate mom to no end.

As I observe the medical and health industry becoming one motivated in large part by greed, I feel the need to dig in my heels and say "no". (Our former church overseer is a practicing physician. He used to say most doctors are in it for the money but he practices medicine because he wants to help people, and this he did.) I sense the LORD is making me aware of this reality in order to wean me from dependence on the medical profession and instead learn to rely on the LORD for health.

Two years ago I suffered badly from pain in my hips. Went to the doctor and was told I will need hip replacement sometime. I was in severe pain. One day I felt like I needed to be anointed as per James 5. So I was. My pain did not go away but the severity was lessened. In the meantime we prayed. This summer I felt the LORD telling me I should quit praying about it because he heard me. I quit praying and as a result there has been vast improvement. There is still some pain, but God is giving me the grace to endure and there is no hip replacement within sight for me. The LORD made me aware of practical things I could do to enhance my well-being - one, that my body is ageing and I need to respect it - I am no longer 45 YO even though my ambition is much younger!

As Obamacare becomes the norm, I believe Christians will be forced to look to the LORD for their health. Many cannot afford it and too many procedures have dubious value. (Our daughter's cancer was treated with radiation. I asked the nurses about its effectiveness and they told me it does not cure cancer! But the hospital had open house to showcase their technology to the public. I was severely troubled by this mindset - why bother with it when it promises so little? Who benefits? The patient didn't.)

Having said all this and with experiences we have had, I find myself having to totally rethink our dependence upon commercial medicine. Is this where God wants us? How is he being glorified? I strongly believe we are much too quick to run to doctors when we should instead be bringing it to the LORD. If this would become the norm, we may see the hand of the LORD move in ways unknown to us. (I do not understand scripture to speak against medicine, just man's dependence upon it. Am also aware a lot of illnesses are a result of sins of the mind, spirit, emotion.)

God bless.


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2013/1/13 5:02Profile









 ccchhhrrriiisss

i finally figured out how you speak your moniker....three of each letter. you wrote:

Quote:
I would just like to state that flu shots DO work.



well, this year, my flu shot didnt work for me.

shrug...oh well. i spent five days in the hospital.

shrug, oh well. i DID have a nice time, not being sarcastic, the nurses, God bless them all, are very loving and did take good care of me, as did my beloved doctor. He's a good man.

you know Chris, and i write this in all frankness, you're a cypher to me, meaning i dont "get you". i'm a writer my brother. i KNOW the energy and work it takes to write long, well thought posts, and whats all so perplexing to me, are the subjects, that you choose, to write very long, well constructed posts.

i praise God that the Holy Spirit reveals things to me, God the Holy Ghost has NEVER let me down, and i thank Him, profusely when He not only REVEALS, but warns me.

and thats all i will write on this matter.....this time the flu shot didnt work....shrug, but you sure did spend a lot of energy defending Big Pharma, and if thats your calling, go in the strength you have. But remember, God is watching.

 2013/1/13 9:25
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re: ccchhhrrriiisss

Quote:
HezWelling....you sure did spend a lot of energy defending Big Pharma.



Wow! and I thought I was the only one that saw this, guess i was waiting for someone else to say this, I just did not want to become a casualty of the heated debate. Thanks for bringing this up Brother Neil, the time has begun and is now is in full mode, we all better know how to recognize the wolves in sheep's clothing. For the record I am not calling anyone a wolf, it was just a general statement.

edit: Had to do a correction on the wolves and sheep's thing, was only on my first cup of coffee. :)


_________________
Bill

 2013/1/13 10:42Profile





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