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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Can Catholics Have the Assurance of Salvation? by Dan Delzell

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 Re:

Hi Jimp,

What do you mean by "John's baptism was the old test?" and "pictures of baby dedication but as Jesus said they are condemned already?" Sorry can you expand a little on that, I'm sure what you are referring to there.

You also say "the important baptism on the new covenant is being baptized into his blood."

Yes I totally agree with you there. I have written about that at length in a previous post.

 2012/12/1 4:35









 Re:

Frank,

"Out of his heart shall flow RIVERS OF LIVING WATER." Now this he said about the SPIRIT which those who believed in him were to receive....(John 7:38-39)

This prophecy seems to relate to Zechariah 14:8 "On that day living water shall flow out from Jerusalem". During the Feast of Tabernacles there was a water liberation ritual where water flows from the sanctuary. This ritual is prefigured in the garden (sanctuary) of eden (the temple of creation). And looks forward to the sanctuary of heaven (the temple of God), where he pours out his Spirit (living water) from his 'heart' when he is glorified (John 7:39). A clearer picture of this heavenly picture can be seen by looking at Ezek 47:1-12 and Rev 22:1-2.

"He who sent me to BAPTISE WITH WATER said to me 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who BAPTIZES WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

You have said scripture does not refer to baptism of babies, so I will give my defence of this practice.

WHOLE HOUSEHOLDS ARE BAPTIZED

You have quoted Acts 2:37 and 2:38 "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the Apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and Ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".

But if we read on we sees he continues..."For this promise is to you AND TO YOUR CHILDREN. The Apostles baptized entire households (Acts 16:15; Acts 16:33; 1 Cor 1:16).

"For he came to save all through means of Himself, all I say, who through Him are born again to God - infants, and children, and boys and youth, and old men." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2,22:4 ( AD 180)

ORIGINAL SIN

The reason infants are baptized is as Catholics we believe in the doctrine of 'Original Sin'.

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5)

"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, so death spread to all men because all men sinned." (Rom 5:12)

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience, many will be made righteous." (Rom 5:19)

There is no dogmatic teaching on the fate of non baptized infants, although limbo was proposed in the past. We now tend to say, we entrust them to the mercy of God. But we believe in original sin and the church advises to baptize infants.

"For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the Apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too" Origen, Homily on Romans v9 (AD 244).

"Baptism is given for the remission of sins; and according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. And indeed if there were nothing infact which required a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous." Origen Homily on Levities 8:3 (AD 244)

A CIRCUMCISION WITHOUT HANDS

"In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in BAPTISM, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead." (Col 2:11-12)

The sign of the Abrahamic covenant was a circumcision of the flesh (Gen 17). But the Lord promises to circumcise our hearts, so that we will love the Lord God with all our heart and soul (Deut 30:6). He will 'wash us with hyssop' and blot out our iniquities (Psalm 51:7-9), by the blood of the lamb when we are baptized into his death. And renew a right Spirit within us (Psalm 51:10), when he pours his love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit (Rom 5:5).

That 8 day old infant boys were circumcised in the old covenant has traditionally been seen as another reason baptism should not be delayed. Also a covenant view of scripture is consistent with this.

"But in respect of the case of the infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, and that law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think one is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day...And therefore dear brother, this was our opinion in council, that by us no one ought to be hindered from baptism...we think is to be even more observed in respect of infants and newly-born persons (Cyprian to Disuse, Epistle 58 (64): 2,6 (AD 251)

Frank you must know I am not going to pronounce my final judgement, I will leave that to God, and live with joyful hope. But thank you for your concern, I understand where you are coming from.

 2012/12/1 6:23









 Re:

Sorry, I think I explained John 7:37-38 a little bit wrong. Because it says "Out of OUR heart shall flow living water". So it's referring to US receiving the Spirit which 'is like a spring bubbling up to eternal life". In John 7:37 Jesus says on the last day of the feast of tabernacles "If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink". Because he is the source of the Spirit, through the Father, as it shows in Rev 22 "The water of life flows from the Throne of God and the Lamb. As the Niceno-Constantinopolitian creed says "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the the Father and the Son".

I hope it is clear though why the Catholic church sees the water and Spirit of baptism in this way, even though I know you interpretate it differently. And I know you interprete Revelation differently too.

 2012/12/1 7:48









 Re:

Hi Andie, I quoted the Scriptures that you gave me and showed that they had nothing to do with water baptism. Can I ask you why you quoted them Andie?

You see, you refer back to creeds to tell you about the baptism of the Holy Spirit and to explain to you Scriptures. Genuinly born again Christians live the Scriptures Andie. I have this living water that the Scriptures talk about. I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit with gifts, that's a far cry from kissing the Bishops ring when I was 11. Its not about speaking the words or quoting men's opinions, its about the living true reality of Jesus to change a man or woman from the inside out and to baptize them with His Holy Spirit to empower them to witness. Again, you are the one who quoted Acts and I am the one who is commenting on the Scriptures you gave Andie? Are you merely cutting and pasting or did you look up and study these Scriptures to show yourself approved?

A few posts back you said I was all over the place, now you are in danger of the same Andie. This thread is not about original sin, its about assurance of salvation. For if one is not saved everything else is a moot point would you not agree? I really must insist that you answer the question that I posed to you, and remember, people are reading this from all over the world and want to hear your answer. If you were to die 30 seconds from reading this, where would you go and why? Failure to answer this question is a testimony in and of itself. I am sure that there are many saints praying that the Lord would reveal the great truth to you about salvation and the assurance that comes with it. I am certain even now that the Holy Spirit is speaking to you Andie. Please do not resist Him, the Scriptures tell us that the Holy Spirit will lead and guide us into all Truth, not a man, not a pope, but God Himself speaking to the hearts of man. When Jesus met the woman at the well, she tried to embroil Him in a religious controversy, yet He was only interested in her heart and He spoke to her heart. I believe that the Lord is speaking to your heart Andie. I love you and I am praying for you........Frank

 2012/12/1 10:15









 Re:

Frank,

I actually said nothing about John 7:37-39 or John 1:33 being about baptism in the original post. I said they show how John associates water and Spirit.

You misquoted me your next post, saying the verses had nothing to do with baptism, when I had not even suggested they had. And in this last post I expanded on one of the versus, to show how I felt it linked water and the Holy Spirit in more detail.

I'm not cutting and pasting. Not that I think there is anything wrong with that. My computer is my phone so I don't think I can anyway. I am trying to present the Catholic position on this issue, and I use the catechism, bible commentaries, and books. I'm not trying to show myself approved, I am trying to educate myself and offer what I hope is an Orthodox explaination from a Catholic perpective, since the OP related to Catholism. And I am actually finding having to answer your questions is helping me learn more too.

Now with original sin, I presented that because in the post before you were saying that you shouldn't baptise infants, original sin is one of the reasons why we do baptise infants! That's why I was discussing it. I'm sorry if that was not clear.

Yes I referred back to the creed because I had not made the connection before between the stream in Revelation being a picture of the Holy Spirit! For me experience is not opposed to scripture and doctrine. You can be deceived in both.

Frank, I would prefer it if you stopped asking me the thirty second question all the time, because I have already answered it. I don't have certainty, but I have hope.

 2012/12/1 11:32









 Re:

HI Andie, you wrote.........

"Frank, I would prefer it if you stopped asking me the thirty second question all the time, because I have already answered it. I don't have certainty, but I have hope."

Obviously you had not answered it but now you have. So in your previous answers you said that you cannot have assurance of salvation because you might, in the future, have some " serious unrepented sin," your phrase. Well, I took the future aspect out of your answer to see where you stand right now. And you have answered and I thank you for finally answering what I already knew Catholics believe.

Most Catholic believe if they died right now they would go to hell or purgatory because they are not good enough. Since purgatory does not exist, then the reality of a Catholic is a dreadful one of fear for eternal soul. It is a terrible bondage. I already knew that having grown up as a Catholic in a Catholic community, which I believe you have not? Andie, I pray that you find freedom in Jesus. The Lord says that " He whom the Son sets free is free indeed." You have acknowledged that you are in bondage and have no freedom.

It seems to me Andie that since you have acknowledged that if you got ran over by a bus today that you would more than likely end up in hell, then there is nothing really more to say. I have given you countless Scriptures to refute this, now you must reconcile what the word of God says as opposed to the doctrines and traditions of men. I obviously pray that you will have your break-through. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this with you, to go further in this vein I believe would be fruitless. Take care Andie...........Frank

 2012/12/1 12:39









 Re:

I'm afraid you have misquoted me again. I will try and explain:

The reason ANYONE would go to hell is if they die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love. I am still unsure if YOU believe mortal sin is the cause of someone's decent into hell.

I asked YOU if you died with unrepentant serious sins would YOU or any other 'salvation assured' Christians go to hell? Which you haven't answered as yet.

As for me, as I said, I have a good idea of where I would go based on my conscience. I repent, resolve to amend my life with the help of God's grace as necessary, and Jesus forgives me on account of his sorrowful passion. As Paul says "even if I am not aware of anything against myself" I still have joyful hope, rather than judging in place of God.

"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I AM NOT THEREBY ACQUITTED. IT IS THE LORD THAT JUDGES ME. Therefore do not pronounce judgement before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light all the things hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. And then every man shall receive his commendation from God (1 Cor 4:3-5).

 2012/12/1 13:39
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, jesus' blood on the cross took away the guilt of sin.is.53... He cut a covenant for God and man in His flesh and conquered sin and death.He paid the whole price.once we come to him in repentance(turning the rule of our lives over to His rule),He becomes our advocate to the Father so when the Father looks at us He sees Jesus for we are in Him.jimp

 2012/12/1 14:56Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2774
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I AM NOT THEREBY ACQUITTED. IT IS THE LORD THAT JUDGES ME. Therefore do not pronounce judgement before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light all the things hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. And then every man shall receive his commendation from God (1 Cor 4:3-5).



Amen, the Lord is judge, and this is His judgment;

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5)

Isn't that beautiful? Justification is not a process of renewal; justification is God’s decisive verdict of forgiveness and righteousness that assures Christian believers of the acceptance and love of their heavenly Father.

Now believers, cleansed by faith in His blood, can go on and serve God with all their heart without constantly worrying whether they are doing it adequately or not.

Agustus Toplady had it right when he penned Rock of Ages;

Nothing in my hands I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling.
Naked look to Thee for dress,
Helpless look to Thee for grace.
I the foul one, to Your fountain fly,
Wash me Jesus, or I die.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2012/12/1 15:24Profile









 Re:

Ron writes............

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5)

Isn't that beautiful? Justification is not a process of renewal; justification is God’s decisive verdict of forgiveness and righteousness that assures Christian believers of the acceptance and love of their heavenly Father.

Now believers, cleansed by faith in His blood, can go on and serve God with all their heart without constantly worrying whether they are doing it adequately or not.

Agustus Toplady had it right when he penned Rock of Ages;

Nothing in my hands I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling.
Naked look to Thee for dress,
Helpless look to Thee for grace.
I the foul one, to Your fountain fly,
Wash me Jesus, or I die.


Amen Ron............bro Frank

 2012/12/1 16:02





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