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I don't believe baptism is just sprinkling of water!
The Sacraments are spiritual gifts with a material component used as the vehicle by which the gift is brought to us. It is proper to man who is made up of body and soul. And the material components often are foreshadowed in the Old testament.
When I said I was supernaturally dead I meant that while I received the Holy Spirit in Baptism I had set my will against God by comitting serious sins since that time, for which I hadn't repented. As such I was I headed for hell.
| 2012/11/26 23:44|
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andie, i understand your belief system. do you have a personal ,intimate love relationship with the living Jesus or do you stand in awe at a piece of blessed bread.is your baptism carried out where you have reckoned yourself dead and buried with Him and as He arose you being in Him rose with Him.when you were confirmed did your life change when the bishop laid hands on you to receive the Holy Spirit? what we are talking about is real and life changing events that we can testify of and not a belief system. jimp
| 2012/11/27 0:14||Profile|
| Re: |
Hi Andie, you wrote.........
"When I said I was supernaturally dead I meant that while I received the Holy Spirit in Baptism I had set my will against God by comitting serious sins since that time, for which I hadn't repented. As such I was I headed for hell."
So let me see if I have what you are saying. In obedience to John 3:5 which states that you must be born again of water and the Spirit, you were baptized as an infant or toddler and then after being baptized by at least the water part this led not to life but to spiritual death? Are you really saying that? Lets leave that for a second, we can always talk about the fact that everyone is born of the flesh( water) but one must be born of the Spirit ( therefore this water Jesus is talking about has nothing to do with baptism and that therefore in my scenario you are still dead in your sins at that point) later.
Later Jesus says, in the same chapter and on the same subject.........
Joh 3:15 so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Now the Greek word for " believe," here is pist-yoo-o. Its very important to realize the definition of that word. The word means " to have faith," and " to entrust." You see, it does not mean a mental assent to an abstract truth. It literaly means to have faith in and to entrust Jesus. And if you do that, the Scriptures tell us that you would not perish but that you would have eternal life.( assurance of salvation kicks in here) Now if Jesus commands that we must have faith in Him in order to be saved, is there another Scripture that would back that up?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)
You see, man is saved by grace through faith and not of works. Will their be fruit from the man who is saved? Yes indeed. Can a man have works and and not have faith? Yes indeed, but he cannot have faith and and not have works. So to put it very simply, a man is born again of the Spirit by believing ( having faith, to put ones trust in) in the Lord Jesus Christ and trusting Him with our lives and eternal souls which leads to regeneration and a new man ( not theologically but actually) and a new creature in Christ where all things are made new.
In the above paragraph Andie you will see that a man must be saved by grace through faith in order to lead to the " works,' that the Scriptures speak of. And these works are not the Sacraments, they are God's work in men to mold them into the image of His Son. These works cannot begin until one is truly born again ( otherwise you would simply be a pharisee) therefore Justification precedes sanctification and must indeed do so, all else is the works of the flesh no matter how they are dressed up. Now Andie, have you been saved by grace through faith, born again of the Spirit, renewed, justified and in the process of sanctification and can you say that if you died this night that you would have the assurance that the Scriptures clearly state that we have? This is eternal life and death, it is the weightiest matter that you will ever consider and you conclusions will have eternal consequences..............Frank
| 2012/11/27 0:40|
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andrew theoligy maters much ,,in saying it doesnt matter,,is saying a man can believe anthyhing about god and still be saved ,,,,if i as a man teach and believe the theology of the jehovawittnes with a warped christolgy and twisted phunomaoligy ,,where is the power and presence of the holy spirit ,,,life and death is in the power of the toung,,,,,if you daughter comes to you and says dad your theology and doctrines about your god are erelevent and it doesnt matter ,,,,,dad iv been talking to some jehovawittnes and i dont believe in the trinity ,and think christ is only and angle named michel ,,,,are you going to say its ok darling you beleiev what you want about god theoilgy wont save you
there is dammnamable theoligy ,AND WE MUST NOT TEACH IT
we must have sound bibilical doctrine and theoligy that does not contradict scripture
that is the issue we are speaking about here
the catholic church has dammable christoligy and phunamoligy ,,,,,im speaking about the theoligy of the holy spirit and how he works in men ,,a twisted theolighy about the grace of god
there theolighy proper as it is called is flawed to the maxium ,,,they teach a false god that has no anger against blatent idolarty ,and necromancy
the new birth has no spirual bibical substance ,but is degraded to ritulisim ,,,there repentence is ego repentence ,,,there door is opend to demonic suductive spirits ,,,,
if theolighy doesnt matter ,,then why do we tremble with anger and weeping at the abonmible teachings of the catholic church and the jehovawitness ,and the bastaredised liberal theoligy that is prevelent ,if theoligy doesnt matter ,,,why defend the truth
theology makes a difference ,,in its self it doesnt save
but bad theoligy has damed more souls to hell then every tavern and brothel
meaning the study of god and conclusions that we come to make difference ,,and lets stay in a bibical conclusion
and let us never every tell sons of god or sons of adam
that the study of god doesnt matter
lets gather seeds and not scatter with the heritics ,,whos doctrines about god his word and actions in mear men ,are twisted and destuctive to the gosple and the souls of men
god bless us all
| 2012/11/27 1:18||Profile|
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Baptism is a spirit/water baptism. It is always been believed by the Church that baptism is how one receives new life, by receiving the very life of God in the Holy Spirit. I didn't "at least receive the water part".
Did baptism lead for death to me? No, certainly not! Spiritual death came to me by unrepentant SIN.
I can see from what you have written that you believe that the water in a spirit/water baptism refers to amniotic fluid. This argument was addressed in the tract I posted so I will leave it to your discretion whether you want to read this or not.
Yes I agree that we are bought to new life entirety by the Grace of God when we have faith and are baptized in the name of The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Initial justification in baptism is by faith through Grace and precedes any works.
What you have written about believing and trusting in Jesus is all true and important, but in historic Christianity this was never separated from Baptism. It is not a case of either/or, but of both.
| 2012/11/27 1:37|
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Yes I have a personal relationship with our Lord Jesus. He has shown me who I truely am in Him. But I am also part of the Body of Christ and I believe God works through his body.
| 2012/11/27 1:54|
| Re: Can Catholics Have the Assurance of Salvation? by Dan Delzell|
andrew theoligy maters much ,,in saying it doesnt matter,,is saying a man can believe anthyhing about god and still be saved ,,,,if i as a man teach and believe the theology of the jehovawittnes with a warped christolgy and twisted phunomaoligy ,,where is the power and presence of the holy spirit ,,,life and death is in the power of the toung,,,,,if you daughter comes to you and says dad your theology and doctrines about your god are erelevent and it doesnt matter ,,,,,dad iv been talking to some jehovawittnes and i dont believe in the trinity ,and think christ is only and angle named michel ,,,,are you going to say its ok darling you beleiev what you want about god theoilgy wont save you Brother Gary
A man can believe anything he wants about God. He can believe that He is a space man from another planet. Or that He doesn't even exists at all. Unless God Himself by the Holy Spirit reveals to a man that Jesus Christ died for sin and was raised from the dead, then that man may as well believe that he is a space man as well for all the good his theology will do him. It is by grace through faith and this alone is sufficient for salvation. If this understanding comes from God and it must come from God to be true, then theology is just another book to read or else burn to keep warm. The Roman Catholic Church is a true church whether we like it or not. It is not the theology which matters it is whether some truly believe. Begin with the man not the dead letter of theology. Find the man who in his heart truly believes that Jesus died for his sin and was raised for his justification and there you have found a believer....no matter where you may find him. The truth is that the vast majority of those who say they are born again don't even have an understanding of what is called theology. They simply believe and love God.
Stop making divisions and start serving then one night the man or woman who you have served with the love of Christ will remember what it is they believe and give thanks. Then they too will have assurance and press on unto glory taking others with them in their service. Service not theology. Compassion not knowledge. Faith not fancy. Love not pity.
The root question was can a Roman Catholic have assurance of salvation. The answer is really two fold. Do they truly know Christ individually? Are they serving Christ according to the royal commandment to love one another? If the question was a theological one then you would have to damn them all to hell. Not really a good attitude in view of the fact that the Roman Church has in it all the truth sufficient for life. The other groups you keep mentioning have none of the truth sufficient for life. It is a big mistake to condemn Roman Catholics out of hand because you happen to know that they have some false doctrines in the midst. They also have every tenet of sound truth sufficient to be born again to the one who seeks for God and is called according to His purposes.
| 2012/11/27 4:52|
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What is your definition of a personal relationship with Jesus? I am going to agree to disagree with you on the other matters for it seems that you are convinced in what you believe, even although it is inconsistant with Scripture as you have no personal assurance of your salvation.
By the way, just as an aside. What happens to babies who die prior to being baptized in your mind and do you have any Scripture to back up what you believe on that issue? No tracts or cut and paste please ( most Catholic apologists I have ever met, and I have met a lot of them, almost always refer you to literature. As I was taught as a Catholic not to read the Bible, I can see why. Think of that Andie, I was taught not to read the Bible. And I grew up in one of the most staunchest Catholic communities in the world) .............Frank
| 2012/11/27 9:40|
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I don't think we have covered the scriptural basis for assurance of salvation.
I have offered scripture to support justification as past, present and future, which you have not commented on.
I am not going to get into the other questions because although we have answered the question that, yes Catholics do not belief in the assurance of salvation, we haven't delved much deeper than that. As is often the way in threads in forums we jump all over the place from topic to topic.
If you could offer scriptural support for this belief I will comment on that. Although I don't know if I will be here much for the rest of the week, as have work commitments.
| 2012/11/27 11:14|
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Its not all over the place at all. These are logical progressions to the topic at hand. For instance, I gave you the context of John 3 and tied it to Eph 2:8-9. The key word from John 3:15 is that one must believe in order to have eternal life. You see it does say that if one believes then one shall not perish but have everlasting life. And right there, from Jesus Himself, He tells us that if we believe ( proper meaning of the word, word means to have faith) then we will have eternal life. You ignored that and Andie.
You also ignored the Eph 2:8-9 which says that a man is saved by grace through faith and not by works. What do you think it means to be saved. If you are drowning and I pull you from the water, are you saved or still in the water. And since that is not enough and you choose not to comment on that( I suspect the tract does not cover this, I dearly want you to think for yourself and give me your opinion on the Scriptures I just gave and my explanation ass opposed to your) then here are other Scriptures that you can tell me what you think it means..........
1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Okay Andie, this Scripture ties into John 3 and Eph 2, notice again the words that if you " believe," ( proper definition) that you will know that you have eternal life. You Andie, by your own admission do not know thereore according to this Scripture you have not believed to Salvation and you are yet in your sin.
John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Okay Andie, there is our favorite word again. And, according to Jesus, if you have believed then you have everlasting life and that you have passed from death to life. Since you say that you do not know that you have everlasting life, then you are wrong or Jesus is wrong. There is a Scripture that says let all men be liars and God be true. I am going to have to go with Jesus Andie and my your own confession, believe that you have not passed from death to life for if you had, you would know, you would have assurance that you had life and that eternally.
Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
If a person has called upon the name of the Lord and believed in his heart then that person is saved.
John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand
If a man has believed in his heart and confessed with his mouth then he has eternal life according to Jesus.
2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
I would exhort you to examine yourself in the light of the above Scriptures and bow your knee to what Jesus said, not the doctrines of man.
Romans 8:16 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
We can know and do know Andie. This who know Jesus know that they have eternal life and are at peace with this assurance.
Romans 8:1 - [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Those who are in Christ Jesus, born again of the Spirit do not walk in condemnation and guilt, they walk in freedom because he who the Son sets free are free indeed. Are you free indeed Andie. Do you walk according to the Spirit without guilt and condemtaion knowing that nothing can seperate Gods children from His love?
1 John 5:5-8 - Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Have you overcome the world Andie, are you indeed dead to this world by beleiving in the true and Holy Jesus?
1 John 3:20 - For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
2 Timothy 1:12 - For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
You see the confidence of Paul? Why is he so confident, where does his assurance come from? It comes from beleiving and knowing the one he believes in, actually knowing Him. Do you actually know HIm Andie, and if that were so, why do you not know this peace and assurance of soul?
Acts 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Again, one is either saved by trusting in Jesus completly or they are not.
Acts 2:21 - And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved
Are you saved Andie and if you say yes, then what are you saved from? Are you saved from hell? Are you saved from sin? Are you saved from the world? What are you saved from??????
John 6:39 - And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Do you have peace through your justification Andie? For you claim that sanctification comes first therefore since you claim not to be justified then you cnnot have the peace that Paul speaks of.
John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Have you came to Him Andie? Do you believe only the first half of this sentence? Do you presume to contradict Jesus. Would it not be better to contradict catholic theology that to be found contradicting God?
John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Does the wrath of God abide on you Andie? Can you say right now that you have everlasting life? Will you again reject the words of Jesus over the words of men? Andie, I have at least 20 more Scriptures that I could give you. All of them would challenge you to believe God and His word and not the doctrines and dogmas of men. Its your choice Andie, but you did ask for Scriptures and I gave them to you. ..................Frank
| 2012/11/27 11:54|