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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are the people of Israel estranged brothers and sisters?

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 Re: Are the people of Israel estranged brothers and sisters?

"Note this question is asked in the context of unsaved Jews, not Messianic Jews. So again are the unsaved Jews in Israel and abroad, are they our estranged brethren in Christ?"..Bearmaster

Jesus said :"Marvel not that I say you MUST be born again!" the second time from above. You are not a Christian or of Christ unless you are; most likely you are just religious.

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."....Romans 8

This was played out to the T in Jesus's Earthly ministry .

 2012/11/23 9:55


I think Tom bringing in John 3 nailed it on the head. One who is a brother or sister is one who has been born again. Jesus is talking to Nicodemus who is a Jew. Jews have to be born again to be savved. Unsaved Jews are not our brothers or sisters in the Lord. Estranged or otherwise. Saints this is not anti semetism but gospel truth.

To call an unsaved Jew my Jewish brother is like calling an unsaved Moslem my Moslem brother or an unsaved Mormon my Mormon brother. This almost reminds what some liberals preach. Tbe fatherhood if God and the brotherhood of man. This may be the false church that many see played out in the end times.

My thoughts.


 2012/11/23 10:22

Joined: 2008/8/23
Posts: 100


That there is any debate on this topic is puzzling. Jesus specifically told the Jewish leaders there security could not be found in the fact that they were sons of Abraham.


 2012/11/24 16:45Profile


I never thought of that one Tim, thanks for your input!

 2012/11/24 16:52


Then again, I think I remember you saying in another thread that you had no problem with prophets of the Old Testament not being 100% accurate with their prophecies.

Whoa there pardner, can you please show me where I might have said that in another thread, if I said that then it was a typo, because I disagree with that statement. They were One Hundred percent correct in their prophecies because it was not them that gave it but by the Holy Ghost moving them to speak it.

Either the prophets missed, or the fulfillment is yet to happen in it's fullness. I choose the latter.

Thank you brother for answering my other post, I knew that the discussion (if any) would have been more for entertainment than for knowledge.

My question was simple.

Questions always are, it's the answers that are not. I could just answer with a yes or no, but that doesn't answer the question because it opens up to more questions so it's not really a simple question. Children often ask that nagging question of "why" and we answer them with simple answers and then after they heard that answer then the next question is "why" again and that goes on and on until they ask a question we don't know about or we are tired and want to stop. Well this is one of those times and it's not a simple question.

As for Admin Greg, in his circle of moderators I am probably already marked down as "one of them", and becoming Anonymous is something that I don't want to become. So I am trying to remain neutral and not get into debates about subjects that won't amount to anything.

And thank you for responding brother. Believe it or not, I do respect your position.


 2012/11/24 17:00

Joined: 2010/12/1
Posts: 68


I mentioned this to someone only today and suggested they read Hebrews as it was Pauls letter to the Jews what to do with the old testament. Badly phrased but i have the flu so I will blame that.

Moses and Elijah or whoever the two witnesses are, preach to the Jews during the tribulation, I dunno, five year out? ha ha, anyway, we know the story they eventually get killed and the world are so happy that they are dead that they give presents to each other, must be some fabulous preaching to get that sort of response.

however as I understand it the jews by genetic makeup could keep their promises only by coming through the cross. otherwise we will have jews in heaven that have not accepted Christ as saviour, this is obviously wrong.

Also the house of David is mentioned for time to time with regard to promise David is the best type of Jesus in the Bible and describes as being of he root of David

Paul corrected Peter when he came under the influence of Judaisers. The first sign of them in the camp is law and tradition.

I hope this brings clarity as we have Hebrews to bring light on this subject. i do realise that the many Messianics say Paul was a Helinist and we cant trust Paul. Personaly I believe whoever wrote Hebrews and i believe it was Paul, wrote under the guidance of the Holy Spirit because it is scripture or canon, so we should not dismiss it or ignore it.

Paul throws some confusion into the mix when refering to Christians as Israel, this is known from a Messianics perspective as Replacement theology another way of describing this is Fullfulment theology. The more like the Bareans we are the better as the answer is always in the word.

May I add that it not completley unusual for writers of the word to do something that is not understood without study. Look at Danial and Revelation then try tying in alll the prophets into the same picture. If scripture can be believed then my understanding is that everything from hear till eternity is in the book, everything.

Personal Note I thought we had entered time of the famine of hearing due to the prominance of the Emergent liberal Church however I still find brothers of faith and some hearing the word of God and getting saved. Praise God.

Regards Oskar.

Oskar Abley

 2012/11/26 12:27Profile

Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re: Man centered influence?

"Right now we are getting bits and pieces, here a little, there a little of the divine precepts of God that hae been lost by the neglect of our forefathers"...Amen Approved and God has been gracious in revealing His truth to His saints even in such an age of confusion and lost truth.

Through the cheap Gospel, and who can deny the existance of such a destructive factor in modern religion, comes a man centered understanding that cannot be labeled as "good news". The cheap gospel does not save but it does deceive. Can we afford to negate the influence of possibly the greatest obsticle of Satans devise? The question is how far does this influence reach and sway concerning our current discernments. Even regarding a percieved special favor forthcomming to a genetic race of men? Not to set up a straw man but might the Jews also be given leeway to rebuild a temple and offer animal blood to God under such notion? Consider babes in Christ looking upon such abomination? We live in an age where religious people take offense with that which enters the mouth goes into the stomach and leaves in waste. What will happen when the true babe and mature in Christ are presented the blood of bull and lamb and told to take no offense these things being only symbolic? If Christ is a stumbling stone to the Jew, what would happen if they begin to celebrate the blood of animals? Is there a lamb that exists on earth worthy of the alter save the one that has already been slain? No matter how much one would desire them to come to the true realization of the symbolism, it would reek of law and only serve to cement the unconverted or even the converted Jew into the very thing that Christ would deliver them from.

In thy Seed shall all the nations be blessed? To what time in history do we attribute this great blessing unto all the earth? It is most certainly not found in the history of Israel except through Christ and His bride (a living spiritual race). If Christ is the center of Old and New Testament, then surely He is THE SEED. Was God's purpose for His Son or for a genetic race? If we believe that God's greatest gift and promise to humanity is Himself, then all else is robbery. The Son has always been the promise, and the promise is eternally the Son.

 2012/11/26 12:35Profile

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