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brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1865


 Re:

hi pappa

im certaint you allready have your answers to thoses three questions but i assume you think that my answering thoses questions will some how chang my mind about this issue

god made men for two motavating reasons
to show his glory
and to show grace and mercy

god created adam to be able to sin , to show glory and grace and mercy through a salvic proces
he put teptation in grasp to test mans obedance



sin is not imputed is refuring to the law given such as the ten comanment ,and the noehide laws

even tho the fundamently law of god wasnt givern till moses where by our sins are imputed to our selfs were by the law killed men who were under that law and made sin to be exceding sinfull

death still rained from adam till moses because of adams sin ,even tho no else sinned in the exact same way as adam

i agree babes even tho are in the loins of adam ,are over looked or aquited ,does to the fact that they have not the capacty to repent nor understand

but in the same way they inhert the body of death
and inhertit genetic sickness and die form herdity desesies
they inherit a sinfull spirit ,, which is there at conception

sin revived and i died

this shows that sin was aways with him but when he came to understand the law sinfull passions were aroused by the law ,it made sin exeeding sinfull

sin in us will kick hard against the law of god whe we are not regenerated by the spirit whose laws are then writtern on our hearts

revived is meaning aroused

in the same way the spirit is revived in us through a revivle or baptisim of spirit

it doest mean it just apeared when he understood somthing of sin by the law

the bible just doesnt teach that


paul said the law was to show the sin that is allready there ,,,,through the law is the knowlage of sin

it is seen as a wrectherd thing ,,rather then just nomale or justafiable by the carnal mind

the law doesnt produce the sin or trigger off the sin it just shows the sin for what it is

 2012/11/5 2:26Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1865


 Re:

ohh regarding your last post ,i thought you were asking about oridgnal sin ,, not the fall ,,,,wops

 2012/11/5 2:43Profile









 Re: the first sin

Quote:
hi proud pappa

you asked andrew kelly weather it was taught before agustine wiki seems to indacate that this doctrine was beleieved in the second centry

The concept of original sin was first alluded to in the 2nd century by Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons in his controversy (written in Greek) with the dualist Gnostics.[2] Its scriptural foundation is based on the New Testament teaching of Paul the Apostle (Romans 5:12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:22). Tertullian, Cyprian, Ambrose and Ambrosiaster considered that mankind shares in Adam's sin, transmitted by human generation

i havent verfied this in the writings of the church fathers

but i dare to say is probaly correct Gary




The title of this thread Gary is "The First Sin".

The first sin, if that means Adam's first sin (Satan the Father of Sin -sinned first) must have both a factual or physical and moral basis in reality for Adam, and Eve, as well as every other human being. There are three parts to this claim. They have to do with Adam, Eve and then Adam's seed or else all those who are born of a woman, beginning with Eve whose name does not draw attention to this problem, but its solution. "Mother of the Living". There is also a serious need to understand why Adam sinned. What his sin was and both how it is accounted to "all men" as well as how it affects or has relevance beyond that "accounting" for individual men and women. Focusing on a single element of this complex problem will result in difficulties and in the end division. We should strive for unity of understanding as well of unity of purpose. Otherwise we will have gained nothing at all.

 2012/11/5 3:42
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1865


 Re:

yea i agree i think therese pleanty of devision allready

i feel if one can explaing from scripture in love the reasons for believeing a doctrine ,we can come closer to except why we see things different

rather then make rash harh statments against one another ,through not understaing each others possisions

and the for example calvinism or ariminisim wont seems to us like a dirty word ,but varations of understanding the same princale

what you said should aply to all the conversasions and debats so to speak
i do also feel that if it explained proply there would be less people saying things like if god did this he would be evil , he would be unjust ect ,, this not good to say ,it would be better to say we agree to disagree on a doctrine rather then to mention god being unjust wrong


i did mean the first of adam but to explain what an wye

one should go back to the true oridginal sin of satan

im sure my atempt to explain this would be limited
maany would allready know how through pride satan lifterd up his heart against god ,and was jelious

one sin was enough against a god of infinute value
the mentions he left his own abode with one third of the angles ,and was ivicted from heaven for ever

they came down to reigones of the earth and remain in darkness in the air chained till the day of judment

tepmting and posesions ,an obsesing all that they can


i believe that there eviction was a comon knwolage in the heavens and on the earth

even adam and eve knew what happened to satan

the punisment didint seem to fit the crime

satan still had freedom in the air and he romed the earth two frow at will

the mercy god showed this butafull angle was evedent to eve and adam

it led them to question in there hearts gods athority an severity

the tree of knowlage allways held atractive mystery in there eyes

when satan temted eve to eat ,,the idea that god is soft he wont punish us servery ,was i believe the first false thoughts that were givern room in there mind

this led to a clouded thought process and made her and adam vunrable to satan so satan struck as a serpent strikes

this is the first big mistake that the sons of adam make ,false thinking about gods righeous judgmnt and severity

satan stole out of her the word of god and she became fruitless ,and partook of the fruit of the tree of knowlage


the lak of knowlage of god ,caused the desire of pride to rise ,and inturn the hunger for forbiden knowlage became the goal


this is what happens to the sons of adam now


this thinking is intamently conected to the children of adam


blessings

 2012/11/5 4:36Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by brothagary on 2012/11/5 1:36:18

yea i agree i think therese pleanty of devision allready

i feel if one can explaing from scripture in love the reasons for believeing a doctrine ,we can come closer to except why we see things different




How 'bout explaining this that we might have a better relationship:

"What does it mean when you say we all became dead because of Adam's sin"?

 2012/11/5 10:19Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Andrew wrote ///We should strive for unity of understanding as well of unity of purpose. Otherwise we will have gained nothing at all.///

brothagary wrote
///yea i agree i think therese pleanty of devision allready
i feel if one can explaing from scripture in love the reasons for believeing a doctrine ,we can come closer to except why we see things different
rather then make rash harh statments against one another ,through not understaing each others possisions
and the for example calvinism or ariminisim wont seems to us like a dirty word ,but varations of understanding the same princale///

wounderful thoughts, I am in agreement

 2012/11/5 10:43Profile









 Re: the first sin

Quote:
i believe that there eviction was a comon knwolage in the heavens and on the earth

even adam and eve knew what happened to satan

the punisment didint seem to fit the crime

satan still had freedom in the air and he romed the earth two frow at will

the mercy god showed this butafull angle was evedent to eve and adam

it led them to question in there hearts gods athority an severity

the tree of knowlage allways held atractive mystery in there eyes

when satan temted eve to eat ,,the idea that god is soft he wont punish us servery ,was i believe the first false thoughts that were givern room in there mind

this led to a clouded thought process and made her and adam vunrable to satan so satan struck as a serpent strikes

this is the first big mistake that the sons of adam make ,false thinking about gods righeous judgmnt and severity

satan stole out of her the word of god and she became fruitless ,and partook of the fruit of the tree of knowlage


the lak of knowlage of god ,caused the desire of pride to rise ,and inturn the hunger for forbiden knowlage became the goal


this is what happens to the sons of adam now


this thinking is intamently conected to the children of adam. Gary.





Interesting thoughts Gary. May I ask where your thoughts come from? Is it a view which you have read or are these your own thoughts? I must say I have an altogether different view of time and context myself. But I do think that it just shows how difficult it is to find a simple answer to the question of why Adam disobeyed God. We know that in the end Eve was deceived and so she disobeyed at a disadvantage as it were. We know that before she disobeyed she understood that she ought not to eat that particular fruit. We also know that Adam had the same knowledge of God' will and that he was not deceived, yet he disobeyed God without a seeming reason to do so. We could take this a little further and say that we know what Satan thought about his act of rebellion because we have the very words in Isaiah. But what was in it for Adam? He wasn't deceived there was no reason for pride, he was innocent, this precludes any possibility of pride, and yet he still thought to disobey.

 2012/11/5 10:59
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

Re: the first sin

by amrkelly on 2012/11/5 7:59:56

"nteresting thoughts Gary. May I ask where your thoughts come from? Is it a view which you have read or are these your own thoughts? I must say I have an altogether different view of time and context myself. But I do think that it just shows how difficult it is to find a simple answer to the question of why Adam disobeyed God. We know that in the end Eve was deceived and so she disobeyed at a disadvantage as it were. We know that before she disobeyed she understood that she ought not to eat that particular fruit. We also know that Adam had the same knowledge of God' will and that he was not deceived, yet he disobeyed God without a seeming reason to do so. We could take this a little further and say that we know what Satan thought about his act of rebellion because we have the very words in Isaiah. But what was in it for Adam? He wasn't deceived there was no reason for pride, he was innocent, this precludes any possibility of pride, and yet he still thought to disobey.




Can we not see that for the reasons of Adam's failure, Jesus is now so highly exalted by His Father?

 2012/11/5 11:10Profile









 Re: the first sin

Quote:
Can we not see that for the reasons of Adam's failure, Jesus is now so highly exalted by His Father? croref.



Absolutely we can see it and its the most wonderful reality in the whole universe because Jesus is exalted through obedience.

The reason for discussing these things is not to draw a thread so as to make a rope so as to hang ourselves, it is to understand why despite what we can see, we still sin and this is contrary to God' will. If following Christ was just as easy as knowing that Jesus is exalted we would have all become perfect already. Yet this is not the case and worse than this many saints don't even know how to make sense of it. Though I can't think why you should feel that something is wrong with asking the questions which make for wisdom if we find an answer to them! Or by that means we encourage one another to grown in wisdom and understanding resulting in obedience.


The most important reason for looking into these things seems to me to be because we are Christ' inheritance. We are intended to become His bride in whom He takes Joy. We are to be the honour of His Name. Right now we are somewhat less than vestal and pure. How will we make ourselves ready if we don't understand why despite the fact that we have a new life, we still sin?

 2012/11/5 11:36
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by amrkelly on 2012/11/5 8:36:31

Quote:
Can we not see that for the reasons of Adam's failure, Jesus is now so highly exalted by His Father? croref.



Absolutely we can see it and its the most wonderful reality in the whole universe because Jesus is exalted through obedience.

. . .

The most important reason for looking into these things seems to me to be because we are Christ' inheritance. We are intended to become His bride in whom He takes Joy. We are to be the honour of His Name. Right now we are somewhat less than vestal and pure. How will we make ourselves ready if we don't understand why despite the fact that we have a new life, we still sin?


If we will accept the fact that our new birth, though of God, is not a prevention but the very life of the "Word" Jesus experienced, we will have set before us, by revelation, what keeps us as that which kept Him, i.e., the "indwelling love" for the Father and ALL His Father purposed for having created man. By that same Love, Jesus had a VISION and JOY set before Him. Do we? Would that not be the mark of the new born of Him; the mark of them that love Him?

 2012/11/5 11:54Profile





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