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I dont think it is faith in God as such. It is rather the sense of right and wrong which speaks into our conscience which when obeyed will lead a man to Christ but will not justify a man.
| 2012/10/26 9:31|
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On reconsideration perhaps there is a measure of faith in the existence of something greater than ourselves but that is not trust in God alone for salvation.
| 2012/10/26 9:53|
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Mod RobertW said:
Were the disciples in Christ while He was on the earth?
John 14:20 AT THAT DAY ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
There was a specific day coming, probably at Pentecost no doubt.
Were they baptized by one Spirit into His one Body while He was on earth?
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
At this point He had not yet returned by His Spirit to accomplish this as He was still in a robe of flesh. It was not possible for man to be in Christ as man did not have the Promise that would cause him to be born again to bring his spirit in line with Christs. This would come at Pentecost, when the Father and the Son would come into the 120 as One Holy Spirit to sup with them.
Quote: 2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
so who was 'in Christ' when Christ was on the earth?
A shorter answer: God
| 2012/10/26 9:59|
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by Approved on 2012/10/26 6:59:09
"At this point He had not yet returned by His Spirit to accomplish this as He was still in a robe of flesh. It was not possible for man to be in Christ as man did not have the Promise that would cause him to be born again to bring his spirit in line with Christs. This would come at Pentecost, when the Father and the Son would come into the 120 as One Holy Spirit to sup with them."
Hi Approved! While the "Promise" was indeed fulfilled at Pentecost, Pentecost was NOT for re-birthing anyone since it was for "Clothing" of power as a minister of Christ, for overcoming, for those who already were per John 20:22. Ergo, the Promise was not the re-birth of anyone. This is why Pentecost is important in the life of "born again believer__so important Jesus said, "Don't leave Jerusalem without it".
I might add that this is what Adam lacked when up against his temptation that he failed and what Jesus possessed when overcoming His.
| 2012/10/26 10:19||Profile|
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by krautfrau on 2012/10/26 6:53:22
"On reconsideration perhaps there is a measure of faith in the existence of something greater than ourselves but that is not trust in God alone for salvation."
Thanks Krautfrau! I believe that "measure of faith" could have been that which produced in one a hope of redemption as in, "I know my redeemer lives" . . Job. Whatta ya think?
| 2012/10/26 10:23||Profile|
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"Receive ye the Holy Spirit", is a promise of what would happen at Pentecost.
By John Gill,
"And saith unto them, receive ye the Holy Ghost; meaning not the grace of the Holy Ghost in regeneration, which they had received already; but the gifts of the Spirit, to qualify them for the work he now sent them to do, and which were not now actually bestowed; but this breathing on them, and the words that attended it, were a symbol, pledge, and confirmation, of what they were to receive on the day of Pentecost: hence it appears, that it is the Spirit of God, who, by his gifts and grace, makes and qualifies men to be ministers of the Gospel; and our Lord by this action, and these words, gives a very considerable proof of his deity: the Papists show their impudence and wickedness, in imitating Christ by their insufflations, or breathing on men; pretending thereby to convey the Holy Spirit to them." End.
AS proof, in my own understanding. Peter shortly after, denied that he even knew the Lord Jesus. But On the day of Pentecost, by receiving power from on high, that is the endwelling of the Holy Spirit, being filled Peter boldly proclaimed Jesus Christ to the Jews telling them that they had slain the Lord of Glory, their Messiah.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
A different Peter, no denial after Pentecost.
Acts 10:44-48 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2012/10/26 12:06||Profile|
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Hi Phillip you spoke to Peter before and after pentecost.
I would say before pentecost Peter was saved, after pentecost Peter was endowed with power from on high, thus in his first message preached several thousand were saved, and several other accounts after that concerning Peter show this demonstration of the Spirit and power.
| 2012/10/26 12:38||Profile|
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Quote: I believe that "measure of faith" could have been that which produced in one a hope of redemption as in, "I know my redeemer lives" . . Job. Whatta ya think?
2012/10/26 7:23End Quote
Not sure about that. Job was a holy man ie reached stage three but went through the severe testing you get at that stage. He knew his Redeemer but those who have not just come to Him do not know Him as Redeemer.
The breath Jesus breathed is the awakening or spiritual rebirth.
| 2012/10/26 12:53|
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Hi Approved! While the "Promise" was indeed fulfilled at Pentecost, Pentecost was NOT for re-birthing anyone since it was for "Clothing" of power as a minister of Christ, for overcoming, for those who already were per John 20:22.
Since we have determined that no one was 'in Christ' (except God) prior to His ascension, how did the believers get 'into' Christ? I think we have a clue in Ephesians 4:
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)
All other baptisms and the revelation they provide us with throughout the Old Testament point to this 'One Baptism' that John Baptist and Paul spoke of. It is too broad a subject to list each one and their significance, but they are all ultimately pointing to this great event of 'One Baptism'.
Exegetically we know that we cannot pluralize one aspect of this seven fold revelation in Ephesians 4:4-6 and leave the other 6 singular. To do so would be to στρεβλοῦσιν (wrest) the passage. As surely as there is one God there is only really only One Baptism. There are baptisms many, for sure, but all others are merely types and shadows; instruments of God's revelation. So when Paul gets ready to use the word 'baptism' a whole history of cross-referenced stories should arise in the minds of his hearers that we students of the revelation God had given man to this point.
This 'One Baptism' by the Spirit into One Body, I suggest, is what takes a person 'OUT' of Adam and places then 'IN' Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 15:22) God had been moving mankind towards this promise since the Fall of Adam if not before. We needed to be taken out from the Body of Sin (under the head of old Adam) and baptized into the Body of Christ (under the last Adam). In Adam all die, but in Christ shall all be made alive, etc. In Adam we experience all the ramifications of his sin- including the fall and all of the spiritual and physical consequences of it. We were first born in Adam and we share in Adam's experience in a very real sense. BUT, if any man be in Christ (the last Adam), he/she is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17) We then wait, to whit, for the redemption of our bodies.
How can I be born again into Christ? How can these things be? Can I enter my mother's womb a second time? (John 3) Answer: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:13)
In another figure, this One Baptism event was when the God that was in Christ (as alluded to earlier because He WAS the Temple when He walked the earth John 2:19), came into man to make them temples (individually) and the Temple (corporately) of the Holy Spirit. The Pentecost event was the true figure of all the other times God came to glorify the temple and tabernacle. He comes inside to take up the throne, just like He came into the Temple os Solomon, etc. to take up residence on the Mercy Seat (throne).
So I see Pentecost in the same way as when Solomon dedicated the temple and the fire and glory came; only not into a building, but into man. This fulfilled Isaiah 66:1ff and serves as the basis for Stephen's sermon in Acts 7. God came into man and "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. (John 14:20) Just some thoughts on how I see it play out. :-)
Robert Wurtz II
| 2012/10/26 13:04||Profile|
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This is certainly a mysterious process, that of being born again, and as such I made a statement on Sunday and I don't know where it came from...trusting the Lord that He gave it to me...but please feel free to correct me if I am talking like a looney:)
I said that it might even be possible to be born again while never having seen a bible or having heard the gospel message. Could the pure activity of the Holy Spirit be enough to convict a sinner of sin, righteousness and judgement? And is it possible that a person could put their "measure of faith" into action and thus believe that he is wrong, guilty, unrighteous and seek from his heart, justification from the Creator?
I have heard stories of prisoners in North Korea being led away to execution who have never heard the gospel but were shown an image of the Cross sewn into scrap fabric...and the sight of this apparently was enough to awaken them to bring them to faith as they were being led away. The former prisoner who told me this, believes sincerely that those young men were born again as they climbed the steps to the execution chamber, and that they would be with the Lord when they died.
| 2012/10/26 13:16|