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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Can an Evangelical Christian Vote for a Mormon? by Franklin Graham

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 Re:

Bill... did you steal that from my Facebook status this morning??

Krispy

(Yes... I have a Facebook page. Another new sin in some people's eyes!...lol)

 2012/10/12 12:59









 Re:

Quote:
thank you for the preface, thank you for the response. i did not mean for my words to imply that you were saying it was sin to vote or not vote(although I have heard that from both sides) i was just sayin maybe we could all step back give each other room to follow the Lord leading in this and not get caught up in accusing or throwing stones.(again not saying you are)just a reminder for me and some who might need it:)



Rainydaygirl... I'm right there with ya. I think we will be surprised when we get to other side and all things are revealed to us, and we find out what was really sin... and what was not.

We are such narrowminded (a nice way of saying ignorant) people. We want so badly to judge each other, and this forum... frankly... is a breeding ground for judgementalism. Most everyone who comes here considers themselves to be slightly more spiritual than the average Christian, and thats a bad place to start from. It can only go down hill from there. And from those ivory towers upon which we place ourselves we can only look down on everyone else.

I know this because I am guilty of doing this!

The majority of people here, altho they will never admit it, think they are speaking the very oracles of God... and so they speak harshly and judgementally to and about those who may not agree with their every whim. You dont agree with me? Well then you're not a Christian... or as spiritual... or as mature. I see that on a daily basis here.

So much so thats why I disappeared. Made me want to puke. And I was ashamed to realize how often I have been sucked into the same exact thing myself!

So we bawk at fundamentalists with all their rules and laws, and we call them legalists.... and then we turn around and do the VERY SAME THING. "If you vote for a Mormon then you can not call yourself a Christian!", it is said!

I say "Chapter and verse, please!"

I know believers who will be voting for Obama. I dont get that at all... but far be it from me to judge their relationship with the Lord based upon that!

We judge each other over even more stupid things, like music... or hair length... or whatever it might be. And then we have enough gull to judge and label fundamentalists as "legalists". It's laughable and sad all at the same time.

Most here see themselves as more "mature" Christians. I'm going to offend some here, but I believe the fact is that most folks here are actually quite immature.

I include myself in that number at times as well.

I think we all need to talk less and listen more. Pontificate less and pray more. Prophecy less (not that any real prophecying happens here) and worship more. Judge each other less... and serve each other more.

Until we do that we are nothing but a marching band made up of 5 year olds that cant play a lick of music... but sure make a lot of noise.

Krispy

 2012/10/12 13:11
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3325
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
KrispyKrittr

Bill... did you steal that from my Facebook status this morning??

Krispy



Not on FB anymore, I am not going to set and judge FB I am sure it has it's pros and cons. I left, because I had two different "married" women stalking me, and ones husband is a wonderful person, that just has a wife that likes to fool around.I got off the day this woman ask me to visit her at their ranch one weekend, maybe I should not have let these women cause me to delete my account, but my buddy's friendship was more important than FB. I won't even get into the private emails I got from her, and pictures she sent me, I will let you use your imagination. For me personally, FB was not a good experience.


_________________
Bill

 2012/10/12 13:14Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

Hi Neil,

Quote:

and many posters, many of whom, say "Lord, Lord"...went head to toe with me, but gave no answers that resembled reality....just mindlessly cheerleaded a President, who was under a cloud of delusion, as they were.

and if any of the posters that went head to toe with me in 2002, remain...what say you NOW about Iraq?....hmmmm?



First of all, I think that you are speaking about the discussions that went on in 2003 (into the 2004 election). If I remember correctly, the forums themselves didn't begin until 2003 (Greg can correct me if I am wrong). I joined in 2003, lost my password, and then created this account sometime later in 2003.

Secondly, I don't remember anyone who was "mindlessly cheerleading" a president. Nor should you have the ability to introduce an accusation at him and say that he was "under a cloud of delusion." This is the type of rhetoric that does remind me of some of those debates in 2008.

If memory serves me correctly, you were very much against the war in Iraq and President Bush in 2003 and 2004. In addition, I remember that you indicated support for John Kerry/John Edwards (although you can correct me if I am wrong about that).

While the war in Iraq was a much-heated debate, it was just one facet of the general discussion over the 2004 election. Many Christian voters were concerned about abortion, support for Israel, the increasing embrace of homosexual activism by the Democrats among a few other issues.

Others, like the late "Pastorfrin," were against the concept of "war" conducted by secular governments given his strong "Christian non-resistance" sentiments. We had many long debates and discussions over such issues and many of those debates were much more civil and friendly when they took place via PMs.

Also, if I remember correctly, you indicated that you were supporting Barack Obama in the 2008 election. You stated your reasons and I truly respected you for having reasons, even if I disagreed with you on those things. In hindsight, those things that I felt concern with regarding Barack Obama all came to pass.

Now, I understand that you feel concern with those who might support Mitt Romney. However, you are the same believer who supported Barack Obama less than four years ago. While your reasons against supporting Mitt Romney might be very valid, wouldn't it be expedient to show the same grace to us that you desired in 2008?

As for your points/questions about Iraq and Afghanistan:

I would certainly be willing to discussion those issues with you. I don't remember your questions from 2003; however, I do have some thoughts on those issues that I would be willing to share with you. If you like, you can contact me via email and I can give you my home phone or cell phone numbers.

Like I said, I think that this debate will continue until the election next month. Then, when someone is elected or reelected, many believers will turn their focus on other pressing issues. I guess that since it is difficult to get believers to agree on issues like music, eschatology, calvinism, Bible translations, etc..., it would be difficult to get us to all agree on something like the election.

One thing is clear: I very much treasure the fellowship here on SermonIndex. While I participate in these sort of discussions (too much I feel), I value the believers here on SermonIndex more than words can say.

Brother Neil, you are welcome in my home. and I would extend the hand of fellowship to you regardless of any disagreements that we might too often focus upon.

I truly believe that we agree much more than we disagree. We just tend to focus on the points of contention. I often neglect participation in threads where I agree, follow to learn or simply don't feel that I have much to add. Yet, I often agree with much of those things that are written.

I think that the same is true of most of us. We all want to know God, walk with Him and see His face. We all want God to refine us and to rid us of any chaff in our lives that is unpleasing to Him. We all see the times for what they are...and that they are growing darker as time grows shorter.

If you would like to talk, please feel free to write me an email. I will send you my phone numbers, brother.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/10/12 13:23Profile









 Re: Can an Evangelical Christian Vote for a Mormon? by Franklin Graham

Quote:
Then Elisha came to Damascus. Now Ben- hadad king of Aram was sick, and it was told him, saying, “ The man of God has come here.” The king said to Hazael, “ Take a gift in your hand and go to meet the man of God, and inquire of the Lord by him, saying, ‘Will I recover from this sickness? ’” So Hazael went to meet him and took a gift in his hand, even every kind of good thing of Damascus, forty camels’ loads; and he came and stood before him and said, “ Your son Ben- hadad king of Aram has sent me to you, saying, ‘Will I recover from this sickness? ’” Then Elisha said to him, “ Go, say to him, ‘You will surely recover,’ but the Lord has shown me that he will certainly die.” He fixed his gaze steadily on him until he was ashamed, and the man of God wept. Hazael said, “Why does my lord weep?” Then he answered, “Because I know the evil that you will do to the sons of Israel: their strongholds you will set on fire, and their young men you will kill with the sword, and their little ones you will dash in pieces, and their women with child you will rip up.” Then Hazael said, “But what is your servant, who is but a dog, that he should do this great thing?” And Elisha answered, “ The Lord has shown me that you will be king over Aram.” So he departed from Elisha and returned to his master, who said to him, “What did Elisha say to you?” And he answered, “He told me that you would surely recover.” On the following day, he took the cover and dipped it in water and spread it on his face, so that he died. And Hazael became king in his place. 2 Kings 8:7-15.




This passage of Scripture is comprehensible because it shows the relationship between God’s will and the wicked actions of men. The US election is much less clear. “My God given right to vote!” Or God’s sovereign right to choose no matter what the cost. What do we believe in? The right to vote! Or God’s right to choose! And if God chooses a man to be the head of the most powerful nation in world history; a man who believes that Jesus is the brother of Satan, what will that really mean for men? Or does not God have a sovereign purpose for a nation that added the declaration “One Nation Under God” within living history to its national conscience? Perhaps saying this is just theatrics! Perhaps God is not sovereign after all! Perhaps it will really come down to "my God given right to vote". If it does then who will be accountable then.

 2012/10/12 14:25
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Wow. Speaking truth is now considered hate speach... Deception. Deception. Deception.


Synapsis of this thread...

--If you don't vote Romney, you are casting a vote for Obama.

--If you do not vote, you should leave America (one of my personal favorites btw)

--Not voting is actually voting


Brothers and sisters. I say this in love. A vote for Romney means you are deceived. It does NOT mean that you are not saved or are going to Hell if you do vote for him. After the vote, you will still very much be my brother and sister in the Lord, but deceived on this issue.

Sorry if this bothers you folks. But it would not be love if I let you move in deception and not say something.


_________________
Christiaan

 2012/10/12 14:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:
A vote for Romney means you are deceived.



*sigh* ... why do I bother with this forum??

Krispy

 2012/10/12 15:09
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Quote:
*sigh* ... why do I bother with this forum??




Why do you bother with this forum? It seems to me that you are just looking for people to agree with you and not rock the boat (on this issue). Sorry brother, I'm not the guy. It is as if you would rather have brothers and sisters in Christ who care about people not falling into deception, just hush up and stay in the corner (or vote Romney).

Krispy. I find it very hypocritical of you to speak your mind on this subject with no qualms about your stance, but when others take a similar opposite stance, you begin to huff and puff.

Let me ask you something... Do you think that I, or any others that beleive that a vote for Romney is deception, think that stating this fact to our brothers and sisters in Christ is fun? I dislike it VERY, VERY much. But my love for my brothers and sisters is more important than any uncomfortable feeling that we get by speaking the truth.

Fact. Romney's president will legitimatize the Mormon faith and will in turn help Mormon missionaries bring people to the Mormon faith. They can say to the uneducated, "If the POTUS is a mormon, it must be ok." And you know what... People WILL FALL FOR IT.

This in itself should be enough for any thoughtful Christian to stay as far away from this election as possible. The thought that we can legitimitze the mormon faith by-proxy is sickening.

Another thing that bugs me about (most of) my brothers and sisters in the Lord who are voting for Romney is the following. Usually, these men and women will be the first and loudest to speak against heretics and deception like Hinn, Olsten, White, etc... with no heistiation and with a fevered passion. Why not now speak out against the same deception that is overtaking this election?

The only answer that makes sense, is DECEPTION. Christians actually beleiving that a vote for a Mormon is no big deal.

Writen in love with no malace.




_________________
Christiaan

 2012/10/12 15:47Profile









 Re: Can an Evangelical Christian Vote for a Mormon? by Franklin Graham

Quote:
Then Elisha came to Damascus. Now Ben- hadad king of Aram was sick, and it was told him, saying, “ The man of God has come here.” The king said to Hazael, “ Take a gift in your hand and go to meet the man of God, and inquire of the Lord by him, saying, ‘Will I recover from this sickness? ’” So Hazael went to meet him and took a gift in his hand, even every kind of good thing of Damascus, forty camels’ loads; and he came and stood before him and said, “ Your son Ben- hadad king of Aram has sent me to you, saying, ‘Will I recover from this sickness? ’” Then Elisha said to him, “ Go, say to him, ‘You will surely recover,’ but the Lord has shown me that he will certainly die.” He fixed his gaze steadily on him until he was ashamed, and the man of God wept. Hazael said, “Why does my lord weep?” Then he answered, “Because I know the evil that you will do to the sons of Israel: their strongholds you will set on fire, and their young men you will kill with the sword, and their little ones you will dash in pieces, and their women with child you will rip up.” Then Hazael said, “But what is your servant, who is but a dog, that he should do this great thing?” And Elisha answered, “ The Lord has shown me that you will be king over Aram.” So he departed from Elisha and returned to his master, who said to him, “What did Elisha say to you?” And he answered, “He told me that you would surely recover.” On the following day, he took the cover and dipped it in water and spread it on his face, so that he died. And Hazael became king in his place. 2 Kings 8:7-15.




Aram is the ancient name for Syria. King Ben-Hadad who though sick, is still king. It is Hazael who murders him by soaking a bed cloth in water and putting it over the face of the king who though still sick, has gone to sleep believing he is going to recover. Thus weakened by sickness and unaware by sleep he falls easily under the hand of his murderer. Thus is Hazael become king of Aram.


Elisha first tells Hazael that the King of Aram, will “surly recover”. Not just recover, which would be true regardless, but surly recover. Yet Elisha having declared God’s righteous will tells Hazael that God has shown him that Ben-Hadad will “certainly die”. Then Elisha fixes his gaze directly on Hazael until he expresses his shame because of the unrighteous desire, which he holds regarding his masters sickness. Once his heart is revealed he becomes ashamed in his own understanding and in visibility of Elisha, then Elisha weeps for all that which is coming on Israel. After revealing all the wicked deeds that Hazael will do against Israel, Hazael still does not acknowledge that Elijah had anointed him King of Aram. Elisha then tells Hazael that God has shown him that he will be King over Aram.

No Thus saith the Lord; no command of God, all is a contradiction to God’s righteous intent in that hour, yet Hazael is provoked by the words of Elisha into making his move. Thereby is he exposed in his own heart and is become without excuse. After hearing these things Hazael simply declares to King Ben-Hadad the thing that is given him by Elisha. “Go say to Him, you will surly recover”. On the next morning Hazael suffocates Ben-Hadad as he sleeps with a wet blanket.

Does anyone really think that Mr Romney doesn’t want to be President? Or that he has not been told on the mission fields of France that he is false? Or that he does not desire to take a nation in its weakness and while it sleeps, to make it strong as Aram was strong? Perhaps his own hearts knowledge about what he believes does not make him consider the falsehood of accepting the crown of a nation which does not comprehend what he truly believes because it is so blind with pride in its rights and liberties. The temple rituals of Mormonism may be hidden from the gaze of most men, but they are not hidden from God. To the Mormon who is true to the deep things of his religion believes that America is [to] become Israel. If Mr Romney is to become president it would be better that it were by the hand of God than one child of His were to lend their hand to it. Let Mr Romney and those who are truly for him lend their hands to the blanket and let it not be the hands of the saints. Let their part be the voice which understands why this will be so, If it is indeed to be so.


No thus says the Lord. No prophecy. Just a few words for future reference and understanding.

 2012/10/12 16:12
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3325
Texas

 Re:

Everywhere in the world were there are Christians living in places, were their leader is not Christian, I am sure exercise their right to vote. But yet! in America folks get slammed by other Christians for voting for a Mormon, I am sure there are a lot of Christians in the world that would take a Mormon over their leaders any day. Would someone please show me scripture were we are supposed to vote for for a Christian only. I think I would rather get beat up by an atheist or an agnostic than a Christian, their not near as rough on you, as most Christians, and probably know the word of God better than most Christians.


_________________
Bill

 2012/10/12 16:40Profile





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