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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : prefall or post fall (Sarx) ??

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proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: amrkelly

Hi amrkelly thankyou for clearifing what you meant by Independent Actions, what you wrote was excelant.

RE://Their eyes were opened to see nakedness. Innocence precluded any knowledge of nakedness. Only after gaining the knowledge of good and evil, could they see that nakedness produces lust. Whilst innocent they were not aware nor could they experience lust.//

excelant, would you agree or disagree that this is the same place that infants are born into, no knowledge of good and evil and no since of there own nakedness and born with complete innocence??


RE://Their having been given to one another with the implication of their having union of their bodies was holy in that holiness means being set apart. Adam and Eve were created for one another physically and so their union would have been a holy act of exclusivity. Jesus confirmed this exclusivity whilst contending with the Pharisees who sought to trick him regarding marriage. As the Law of Moses had permitted divorce on the grounds of unfaithfulness they sought to set a snare for Jesus. However the Lord showed by His speech that “God had not intended it to be so from the beginning”. The very fact that Adam and Eve existed alone without others, clearly establishes this fact. It would have been impossible for them to have been unfaithful. They were created exclusively for one another.//

excelant! great insight.

RE: //Nature may mean “that which is natural” or it may mean “the whole substance of their being”. God formed man from the ground and breathed into him the breath of life, and man became a living soul. Spirit, Soul and Body. God said, “in the day you eat thereof, you shall die”.//

Do you believe the whole substance of mans being is sin ??

RE:// Death became their condition. Brought about through sin in disobedience and independence. Not only did death reign in Adam after the fall so also the law of sin and death reigned in his body. His soul after having acted independently of God’s commandment and warning ,continued independently thereafter.//

What was included in this death?? spirtual,physical,relational,death from innocence or all of the above. Please explain more of what you see this death including or being defined as??

How would you define the (law of sin and death) that reignes in the body??



amrkelly you have shown great insight, I am getting a great blessing from what you have wrote thus far even though I might disagree on some of the conclusions, Very insightful, Thank You






 2012/8/3 16:19Profile









 Re: prefall or post fall (Sarx) ??

Quote:
would you agree or disagree that this is the same place that infants are born into, no knowledge of good and evil and no since of there own nakedness and born with complete innocence?? proudpapa



I believe that babies are born innocent in knowledge so far as their personal experience goes. Clearly this must be the case as a baby has no initial experience. Yet we are told that no man has sinned after the likeness of Adam’s sin. It doesn’t take long for an experientially innocent baby to become an experientially disobedient infant. On the other hand Adam was a fully developed man, yet he was also innocent. So I believe from this, that even though no one can reach adulthood and accountability without sinning, no matter how naïve or lovely they may be, they cannot be as Adam was. So no one can be an accounted adult and be innocent. One would have to ask where this knowledge of Good and Evil resides. In Genesis we read that Adam begot a son after his own image and likeness. This I believe speaks of spirit, soul and body. Just as Adam was himself created in the image and likeness of God, so his sons are in his image and likeness. Likeness must mean moral likeness and not simply physical likeness. So also it must mean separation from God. Cain and Abel knew God existed, but their labours were in part set apart to God for God Himself to judge their hearts and activities. They clearly both wanted approval, yet only Abel gained approval.

Quote:
Do you believe the whole substance of mans being is sin ??

What was included in this death?? spirtual,physical,relational,death from innocence or all of the above. Please explain more of what you see this death including or being defined as?? Proudpapa



I believe that the essential change in Adam which took place after the fall was immediate spiritual death. Which is separation from God. Whilst Adam and Eve knew immediately that they were naked, after the fall, they were still unaware that they had died spiritually. Or else that they had become separate from God. It was only after God Himself came into the garden that this condition of separation became real to them. They immediately became afraid of God Himself. Whereas they became aware of the power of sin and death in their bodies the moment they sinned. Nakedness which previously was nothing now became an opportunity for sin. This is the body. The soul, even today does not always sin. Yet to the extent that a person is governed by the lusts of the body, to that extent they will sin. There are many lusts and they all produce death, or else become sin, when the soul is governed by the body. Cain and Abel were after Adam’s likeness and were subject to the curse which came because of Adam’s sin. We can see from their choosing their labour, in fulfilment of the curse to “eat by the sweat of their brow” they chose differently. This choosing shows that the soul which is the instrument of choosing (the will) does not always get it wrong. Yet for Cain his choosing was wrong and Abel’s was not. If the soul chooses wrongly it is not long before sin, which is crouching at the door, literally in the body, springs into activity and thereafter a man has to overcome it. In Cain’s life he did not master it and so he murdered his brother. Today we are taught to overcome through the cross which bore Christ up unto death. All have died because one, even Christ has died for all. Through baptism we put of the old man and thereafter walk in newness of life. If we insist on walking in our own strength we will always be severely tempted by the power of sin and death working in our own bodies.

 2012/8/4 10:03
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

I do not like to participate in these theological discussions but will insert something here for your consideration.

1Cor.15:22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Some would use this to indicate that since Jesus was made of a woman, was not made of the seed of a man, he was had the pre-fall nature because the sinful nature. (Gal.4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.) In other words, the male DNA carries within it the sinful nature. If Jesus did not have Joseph's DNA, he would have had the nature of a pre-fall person.

The implications of this truth is astounding.

Now I will back out...unless someone challenges me!


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2012/8/4 11:14Profile





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