Re:
"look up the word "ekballō" (to cast out) which is the word used when talking about those who had a demon dwelling in them that was cast out.
Check the usage in the New Testament, and see how many times that word is used in relation to demons in Spirit-filled believers."

With respect, I do not care to debate all the aspects of demonization in this thread. Another would be more appropriate. I lightly touched on many aspects to make a point, which is our general ignorance and contradictory (to Scripture) views of the topic. John's issue must be respected, much like someone saying they have a medical condition, and us giving our opinions as though we were authoritative. John has described his condition adequately enough to indicate he is experiencing true demonic activity.

That being said, I will address the issue you brought up, but out of respect to John, to make this a debate about demonology does not seem appropriate here, "wrangling over questions", as Paul might say.

Daimizomai (Strong's G1139), demonized or demonization, improperly translated "demon possession", is a verb form of the noun daimon (G1142), demon. It would be much like the modern phrase saying that Gov. Romney was "swiftboated" by Obama regarding Bain capital, and turning that into Romney being possessed, inhabited, or controlled by swiftboats.

We have wrongly conclude that demons act much like the Holy Spirit does with spiritual believers. That is not and can not be the case.

To argue that demons actually inhabit people, you would make a better case by citing the swine affected by "legion", or the spirit having "come out" of a man to return with seven others worse than it, and then occupying the "house", the man. Much of the Biblical terminollogy used regarding the interaction of spirits and people is necessarily euphemistic in order to somehow describe spiritual activity to our human (earthy) understanding.

Indeed, the "physical" location of a spirit is often within the physical boundary of the human body, but that is not appropriate to our understanding of what actually transpires in being "demonized". I must admit that when ministering to the demonized, I myself use the term "expelling" demons just to express something to which someone can relate. However the terms exorcism ("swear out" from Latin) or possession is wholly inappropriate considering the nuances they imply.

So to say demons are "cast out" of a person is technically correct (in respect to physical location), without addressing the actual dynamics of the event. For example, our being "filled with the Spirit" is technically correct, but that infilling is not the issue, which actualy involves our forming a spiritual union with the Holy Spirit, as Paul himself described, euphemistically comparing it to marriage.

So if we set aside our terminology to understand somewhat that it is their activity that is under question, I gave many New Covenant examples of true believers being "demonized", is in some way being persistently affected by demonic spirits.

As our friend John described in this thread, demonic activity often manifests in various physical ways (verified by many Scriptures). I included two examples of Christ Himself being attacked by the demonic. Paul was constantly harrassed (generally through others) by a messenger (angel) of Satan, ie, a demon. He learned to fend off their personal attacks, so the spirit was forced to use others against him ... INCLUDING fellow ministers of Christ!

Our theology very often interferes with the reality of the spiritual nature of Christian and spiritual experience. If we can remember the extent to which early Christianity was infected by paganism, and that the reformation was actually what the word expresses, a reformation of Catholicism, we might be much more cautious about what now passes for "true Christianity".

Every now and then along comes someone who breaks out of the system, a Wesley, Murray, a Zinzendorf, a Fox, even a Presbyterian like Edwards, to see the amazing works of Christ taking place in their ministries. They, for a time, show us there is something else that we are lacking and have altogether missed. But they, or their movement, one way or other is roped back into the fold of natural Christianity, losing the vibrance of what Christ had left to us.

Expelling demons? Whatever term we chose, however we might understand it, we have authority over the demonic, we can alleviate the suffering of the demonized, and it is quite easily done with the appropriate knowledge. Again, as shown by my many examples, spirits do in fact demonize believers until they learn to overcome them, as noted by John in his first epistle.

Consider Christs timeless mandate to His disciples:

As you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils.
-Matthew 10:7,8

Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father.
-John 14:12

He said to them, Go into all the world, proclaim the gospel to all creation. ... And miraculous signs will follow to those who believe. In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will be well.
-Mark 16:15, 17-18

As we refuse to acknowledge the gifts given to us by our heavenly Father, and obviate their intended use, we leave many unsaved, unhealed, undelivered, relagated to all the sorrow and pain this world and the god of this world has to unleash on us. Lets replace our theology of failure with the kingdom message of power and dominion taught from Genesis to Revelations. Only in this way will the Gospel truly believe to be GOOD NEWS.

My 17 year old student placed her hand on a disabled lady. She felt the power of God go into her, and her first words were, "My husband needs to be prayed for like this. Now I know God loves me." The next day she was riding her bicycle.

Christ came to show His compassion by signs and wonders. By His example, by His gifts, and by His command, we are obligated to minister as He ministered. No less.

Blessed be the Name.

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Robert Sands

Yet my question has still gone unanswered.

I'm just looking for a number.

But I'm glad you brought up Daimizomai (Strong's G1139). It's used 13 times in the New Testament. Despite what you said about mis-translation, it's more or less unanimously agreed upon to mean "under the power of a demon". Which would coordinate with what the Scriptures gave testimony to, about the person that was Daimizomai.

New tally, how many times was Daimizomai used for a Spirit-filed believer in the Bible?

Hint: the answer is the same as the one to my initial question.

Blessings to you, EverestoSama.

You posit a question I did not care to answer in the way you presented it. I did, however, point out much Scriptural support that Christians do in fact come under demonic attack, but not as it is typically understood. So, to answer your question, I find it unscriptural. Saul, very often filled with the Spirit, as was done in Old Covenant times, was often afflicted by the demonic. Jesus Christ Himself, as I pointed out, Spirit filled, was afflicted by the demonic. Paul was afflicted. John repeatedly mentioned Christians overcome the wicked one. Our views on demonic activity and the spiritual make-up of Christians differ to the point I can not answer your question.

I have dealt with enough true Christians you would consider to be demon possessed (but I see it as something else), that I know they are so afflicted by the demonic. Just because our theology differs, I can not give you an answer.

Again, I will not debate the issue on this thread, which is to help our brother, John. I would enjoy discussing the issues of spiritual warfare as it pertains to the demonic, the chance to learn, and hopefully to teach. If you care to start another thread, we can take the discussion there.

Knowing how easy it is to be delivered from the demonic and their oppression, my only concern here is to address the practical, spiritual needs of John, and help him find his lasting freedom through the power of the cross and of the Gospel.

Here I would discuss the techniques of deliverance and spirituality, but not in a debate setting. Here we are to not just give hope, but actual deliverance to one man.
If there are questions about my views on deliverance, I will be happy to give supporting Scripture.

Thank you so much for our discussion, Everest.

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Robert Sands

Affliction is not something I'm arguing. I well believe that a Spirit-filled believer can be oppressed. Possessed is an entirely different subject, as it is addressed differently in Scripture as well.

I'm not arguing affliction, I'm arguing possession, which is where we see the power given and the need to cast out.

The two are highly related.

One of the problems is your premise about Satan and his forces not possessing the un-Godly. This will/cannot be verified by Scripture, as it in fact gives evidence to the opposite. And from this starting point you've had to repackage how the Bible defines oppression and possession, as the initial premise is not accurate.

Possession is not a Biblical term. It is a mistranslation. Therefore it can not be addressed Scripturally. Though every translator translates it incorrectly, our Father, spirituality, and Christianity is not a democracy, a consensus of scholars, or conventional wisdom. Check the Greek, it speaks for itself.

Acts 17:11 These (in erea) were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Peace be with you,

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Robert Sands

I've checked the Greek. From MULTIPLE sources. And it most certainly does speak for itself. It's always translated (not transliterated as there is a difference) as to mean, "Under the power of a demon".

Having to speak multiple languages where I'm at, it's quite important to understand the difference between a "translation" I.E. "under the control of a demon" and a "transliteration" I.E. "demonized". There's good reason why all lexicons and every Greek scholar I've ever heard on the subject who actually knew what they were talking about translate it as "possessed". Simply because, that's what it's talking about.

Also in relations to demons we do see the idea of possession clearly used when Jesus references Satan and the demon possessed in Mark 3:27 and Luke 11:21.

You're using a Gnostic approach to get the Scriptures to say what you want them to say. This is not the Berean way.

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, BUT DOTING ABOUT QUESTIONS AND STRIFES OF WORDS, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
-1 Timothy 6:3,4

To change the noun for demon into a verb, does not give any translator liberty to impose the English word possession on that verb. To understand the meaning of being "demoned" or "demonized" can only be understood from the rest of Scripture (of which there is abundant evidence) and practical experience. I have presented the general teaching of Scripture on the issue, and can do no more. I also have spoken from years of dealing with Christians suffering from this problem of demonic influences, from my failures and successes.

Our divine mandate is not to wrangle over words, but to do the works of Jesus Christ: heal the sick, raise the dead, free the demonized, and reconcile the lost to Christ. Excet for raising the dead, I have done all those things. This is not stated from pride, because my failures outnumber my successes.

That beig said, I would far more prefer to know and do the work of Christ on earth than to be a successful exegete of the Scriptures. Necessarily the one leads to the other. However, it is the work of Christ that we are to manifest in His name in the earth.

I know many, many ministers of whom this is true:

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
-1 Timothy 3:7

Again, true knowledge leads to actual salvation IN THIS LIFE, NOT THE NEXT.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
-Hosea 4:6

My people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge.
-Isaiah 5:13

The purpose of knowledge is not to possess it for its own sake, but for its ability to use it to reconcile people to their heavenly Father in the fulness of that meaning, giving them ALL the blessings that our Father intended us to have from the beginning of creation, and clearly demonstrated by the ministry of Jesus Christ. The true measure of our knowledge is in the use we make of it. Christ is our sole example of that use.

Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father.
-John 14:12

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Robert Sands

As i have told some of you before over the past year i am struggled having evil thoughts towards others and i told you that i their was like a spirit of laughter towards others which i could not explain and i have hated these things going on in my thoughts and life. As i been reading the gospel of matthew it says that evil thoughts come from the heart of man and goes on to list of sins. I believe my bad thoughts are so bad because of my heart is wicked. I have been examing my heart for some time now even before i posted this prayer request and i know thought my problem is not just demons, but primarily it is the sin in my heart.
At one time i was not in bondage to sin like this and i walked with the Lord and had a love for people and obeying God, but now i am realizing that i don't have any love in my heart, i very selfish and prideful, hypocritical and self righteous judgmental and critical, hateful and angry, and the list goes on. Many of you might say well that is great your coming out and telling the truth into the light, but one thing you have to understand though i realize i am like this in my heart and my mind, but i do not have godly conviction over this the way i should. I hate in a sense, but i am not really broken over it, it disturbs me and makes me mad i am thinking this way and my heart is like this, but i am missing godly sorrow and conviction. I have sought the Lord about this to deliver me and at times i get slightly better, but then i fall again getting angry at someone or whatever sin it is and it seems i become even blinded even more than before. So i dont think this just demonic, i think this has been caused because of the sin in my heart and has been something that has got worse over the past few years. Please continue pray for me about this.

John,

When I strayed from God, you know what brought me back. A worship song that I kept singing all day long for days and sang it till I fell asleep. I could literally feel the chains breaking when I kept singing the song

Why not give it a try. It might just work. I think this song may be the most suitable for you. (ETA: you can use any song )

Draw Me Close To You - Hillsong With Lyrics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb5rbE2YFH8

http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/h/hillsong_united/draw_me_close_to_you.html


Draw me close to You
Never let me go
I lay it all down again
To hear You say that I'm Your friend

You are my desire
No one else will do
'Cause nothing else could take Your place
To feel the warmth of Your embrace
Help me find the way
Bring me back to You

You're all I want
You're all I've ever needed
You're all I want
Help me know You are near


I'll pray

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geraldine