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Interesting to note about Servetus...all anyone every says is that "Calvin murdered him."
Fact is, the courts tried him and put him to death. Calvin tried for years to show him the errors of his ways. Heresy was not the only crimes that Servetus was guilty of.
The fact is ALL of Europe wanted this man put to death for any number of things, and even the Catholic Church... which was diametrically opposed to Calvin on just about everything was in agreement with him about Servetus.
If we're going to be honest about history... then lets be honest. The fact is that if Servetus hadnt been put to death in Geneva then he would have been put to death just about anywhere else in Europe.
Not saying it was right! Just saying that all of Europe agreed with Geneva about this man Servetus. But those who hate Reformed Theology only want to talk about Calvin the murderer... who did not convict and condemn this man anyway. The courts did.
| 2012/6/1 9:37|
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Brethren we must realize that there is ugliness and bad things in everybody's past. What we need to do is praise and thank God for the light of Jesus Christ and what he has shown and forgiven us for in spite of our past sins.
There is not a person on earth other than Jesus who has not had to come to more light and realize he was wrong about some things but God is ever teaching us and renewing us to be conformed to the image of His Son.
We read about things people said and did in their past but what we don't realize is that the mistakes that many have made how they prayed and asked God for forgiveness.
I will go on record to say that Spurgeon, Wesley, Finney, and many others have said and wrote things in their past that later on they received more light from the Lord and realized that they were wrong about some things.
Brethren we are not to be followers of men but the Lord and His truth and when we read after any men we must realize that everything he said or did was not inspired of God because he is human. We need wisdom from God to be able receive from the Holy Spirit the inspiration so that we can be taught in the Word.
| 2012/6/1 9:55||Profile|
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Hey Krispy. Steak dinner offer still stands brother. How's the fishing in your neck of the woods this summer? Catching lot's of walleye and bass here.
Although I am gaining appreciation for your much more constructive posting I must still draw attention to this idea you put forth.
Krispy, you state,
If we're going to be honest about history... then lets be honest.
While I certainly agree with the words but it does not seem you are willing to abide by them in the case of Calvin. There are more than ample records of his reign of terror. However, just to "be fair and honest" let's look at just a few of HIS OWN WORDS.
"Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death, knowingly and willingly incur their guilt. It is not human authority that speaks, it is God who speaks and prescribes a perpetual rule for His Church." John Calvin
He clearly in his own words states that those who are "heretics" should BE PUT TO DEATH. As you well know it was by HIS definition that he defined "heretic" and included any who disagreed with him on infant baptism as such. He clearly in his own words states that you should be killed for disagreeing with him on infant baptism or anything he deemed heresy.
In his own words, in the quote, we additionally see that if you did not agree with him on the need to murder folks for disagreeing with him on minute theological points YOU should be put to death also.
So.. Krispy. Calvin in his own words wants to kill those who disagree with him theologically and also kill those who think he shouldn't be murdering folks over a minor theological disagreement. IN CALVIN'S OWN WORDS.
Krispy... if we are going to be honest about history then let's be honest. Calvin clearly wanted any who disagreed with him murdered. He also wanted any that did not like it murdered as well. Honestly.
Oh, and lastly this. As to your thoughts that Calvin was not instrumental in the cold blooded murderous execution of Servetus. Again, FROM CALVIN"S OWN MOUTH
From Calvin's Letter to the Marquis Paet, chamberlain to the King of Navarre, 1561.
"Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels [Anabaptists and others], who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, AS I HAVE EXTERMINATED Michael Servetus the Spaniard."
No doubt about it. In Calvin's own mind and words.. HE EXTERMINATED Servetus ....not the courts, etc. In his mind HE DID IT.. GLADLY! All for not being sufficiently trinitarian or thinking infant baptism was appropriate.
Aside from Calvin, hope you have a great Friday!
| 2012/6/1 11:06||Profile|
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Calvin did actually try to work with Servetus to correct his theology but after Servetus returned a copy of Calvin's Institutes all marked up with what Servetus thought was error, Calvin changed his tacticts with Servetus. Now it does have to be noted that heresy was considered a high crime of which the penalty was typically death. That aside, I turn to the anabaptists and see them being slaughtered for the sake of not conforming to this world. But I struggle with how Calvin and how he handled this. In our time Homosexual clergy is an issue, should we bow the knee to this and allow it or fight against it. Obviously fight against it, but how do we do this, do we put to death people that hold to an opposing view.
On October 27, 1553 Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal beliefs!(1), one of which beliefs was against infant baptism. John Calvin wrote his friend, Farel, on February 13, 1546 (seven years prior to Michael Servetus' arrest) and went on record as saying:
"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."(2)
During Servetus' trial, John Calvin wrote:
"I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty."(5)
1."On only two counts, significantly, was Servetus condemned -- namely, anti-Trinitarianism and anti-paedobaptism." Roland H. Bainton, Hunted Heretic(The Beacon Press, 1953), p. 207.
2.Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (Baker Book House, 1950), p. 371.
5.Walter Nigg, The Heretics (Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1962), p. 328.
I seriously wonder about Calvin. I'm not trying to start fights just my opinion, and something that I wonder. Could be worth nothing I seriously wonder if Calvin fit 2 Timothy 3:5
5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these
| 2012/6/1 11:08||Profile|
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We are not followers of Calvin, Luther, or any other man - with the sole exception of Jesus Christ.
Reading my Bible, I came to the conclusion that God Predestined His chidren from the very begining when He made the Cosmos and the Kingdom. I used both the Greek and the Hebrew to ascertain that the English words I read matched the meaning of the original writings.
Expressing my understanding of these things, some Christians called me a Calvinist, even though I had never read the writings of Calvin. Why read Calvin when I have God's word, the Bible. However, I simply thought that Calvin must have gotten it right on predestination.
Now I am reading in the post above that Calvin wanted Servetus dead for his belief against infant baptism - "heresy, lets kill Servetus" Calvin says. If this be correct, then I am definitely not a Calvinist. In this matter, Calvins' view is postively anti-the Biblical and Christ's teachings.
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,in order that you maybe sons of your Father who is in Heaven; For He causes the sun to rise on the good and the bad; And sends rain on the righteous and unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax gatherers do the same. And if you greet your brothers only, what more do you do? Do not gentiles do the same." Matt 5:44-48
I'm going to follow Jesus, not Calvin.
Proverbs 19:11 A man's wisdom gives him patience; it is to his glory to overlook an offense.
Proverbs 25:21: If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.
Luke 6:27 - 28 Jesus: "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you."
Stephen's words as he was being stoned: Acts 7:60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.
Romans 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
James 2:13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Luke 6:36 - 37 Jesus: "Be Merciful just as your heavenly father is merciful. Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."
My full allegiance is to Jesus only. I am His follower. Others may have helpful ideas, food for thought, but I will always return to the Bible in context, for validation.
| 2012/6/1 12:47||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
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Eat what is agreeable to you at the Lord's table, dear brother, and do it in peace (I Thessalonians 4:11).
Brothers and Sisters we try not to allow such discussions on Calvinism vs Armianism just for the face that rarely if "ever" do they produce the "wisdom that comes from above"
"But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness." (James 3:17-18).
but rather sadly these discussions usually produce the "wisdom from below"
"But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such wisdom does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice." (James 3:14-16).
There personally is not merit to post a thread that you reject a theology and interpretation of Scriptures to a few hundred people on a forum like this. And for those that feel threatened by such things truly do not have a strong sense of the sovereignty of God because He will not let His truth fall in the streets in the end.
May we above all of this seek to serve another. I just made a blog post in this regard: "Its Not About You, Its About One Another - http://www.greggordon.net/about-one-another/
We are locking this thread.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2012/6/1 12:56||Profile|