| Re: Rejection|
I reject the idea of rejection. This is a totally outdated concept in today's theological camps. If Spurgeon were walking along this lake, not a bird would catch fish from it without being attacked by a Zebra mussel.
Without hope, we will never understand the depths of the universe. Stars fade in the memory of the past.
| 2012/5/30 14:17||Profile|
| Re: I Reject the Reformers|
Quote: Be gentle to the Reformist, they had their faults yes, and done wicked things. The problem with the reformation is that everything around them, ....was....well, being reformed. In other words, it was pretty messy.
The protestant reformers persecuted and put to death those I consider the true believers of Jesus Christ. Those being the Anabaptist.
The Church was locked up so to speak, muted from uttering a sound, a peep even. They had to hide their faith, meet in secret, most of them being forced to go underground to worship God together. And when revival did break out it followed hard with persecution from the ruling world, the Roman Catholic Church and it's puppet kingdoms it held sway over.
When the reformation became known it started before Luther but Luther was outspoken and radical, his idea was not to start a protestant reformation, he wanted the Catholic Church to return to the Apostolic teachings to which he believed the Catholic Church was the true Church of God on the earth. He was being like the Apostle Paul warning the church of it's errors and compelling them to return to the faith that was once delivered to the saints.
Luther was at odd with the reformist who were against the RCC altogether. He didn't want to destroy the RCC he wanted the leaders to come to their senses and return to the faith.
They didn't have the freedom like we have today of expressing our faith in print, in those days it was considered offensive and some died for doing that. Brother William Tyndale was such an one.
People were slowly coming out of darkness, the mindset had not yet been reformed into the freedom that we now enjoy in Christ. There was a lot of ideas floating around and seeing blood and death was a normal occurrence.
This does not excuse what was done to the Anabaptist, however, there should be great thought to take into consider of the times to which these people lived and the mindset of the reformist.
Let me give you an example. Paul the Apostle who was once named Saul went about harassing and jailing Christians for believing in the name of Christ. Saul believed that what he was doing was of God. His mind was so set upon doing the will of God, he believed that the clergy was God's right hand on earth.
Peter stopped fellowshipping with gentile believers when a Jew came in sight. His very removal was saying that he hated the gentiles, it was an act of snubbing and persecution.
Do you see what is going on? This was a new thing. Saul was a law man he was zealous of the law to the place of persecuting and death he was mad with hate. This was a new thing and change was slow on the horizon. His mindset had to be changed.
Peter lived under the law all his life and believed that gentiles were dogs, the change was slow to think differently.
I believe this was the case of the Anabaptist. The Anabaptist's were so radical that they were offensive to the common religion of the day to which a lot of these reformist came up out of yet they still had the cloaks of death that had not yet been flung off.
The Anabaptist would say today, "Have mercy on them for they know not what they do".
| 2012/5/30 14:28|
| Re: Translation|
Jesus-is-GOD shared an account of a brother in a Reformed setting that knows gifts and anointing of the Holy Spirit even though he is within an organization that looks down on or denies their present operation. It sounds like the Lord gave her a vision of what he is like spiritually with a view of the glory of God showing from him and a fatness of soul. I haven't had that experience but I have had a couple times where I have seen the glory of God in the faces of the brethren when an anointed word was being shared like face of Stephen when he was martyred in Acts 7.
| 2012/5/30 14:29||Profile|
| Re: |
Be gentle to the Reformist, they had their faults yes, and done wicked things. The problem with the reformation is that everything around them, ....was....well, being reformed. In other words, it was pretty messy.
I believe that this is a good perspective. This is what I was trying to express in my previous post just over an hour ago.
My wife and I are having our kitchen remodeled. Our old and broken post-war (late 1940s) era counters and cabinets are being removed and some new oak cabinets and granite counter-tops are being added in their place. While the hope is to have a good, workable kitchen, our house is quite messy. All of the dishes, pots, pans, and food in the old cabinets are located in boxes in our sitting room. Our goal was NOT to make a mess -- but there is quite a mess right now. By removing some things, we uncovered other problems and flaws in our kitchen. The goal is fix past that mess and have a working kitchen that works in "decency and order."
I suppose that the early reformers are something like that. They are coming out of a broken and flawed "church" system that literally controlled continents. It might behoove us to look at those early reformers as having taken some "baby steps." While the anabaptists had a better perspective in just rejecting everything that Rome and most other organized "Christian" institutions had ever taught, the reformers were not an "institution." They were different men with different beliefs at different stages of maturity as they began a different journey than the path that they were on previously.
Like I said previously, we shouldn't model our faith after the beliefs and writings of the reformers (or even the anabaptists for that matter). When I met Leonard Ravenhill as a young teenager, he gave me an interesting word of wisdom. He said that the "Church" is in the condition that it is in because the "Church" has been doing what it has been doing for a very long time. This, he said, was a reason that I should test everything that I have ever been taught.
In this, I think that our attitude should be similar to the anabaptists. We should question everything that we read, hear, are taught, or subscribe to. No matter WHERE we gather such things or WHO has taught them, we should have the Berean attitude and test everything by what is found ONLY in the Scriptures. I don't have a problem hearing what others have taught (even historically). However, I think that we should do so with the knowledge that they were flawed men from particular points of maturity and eras of history.
| 2012/5/30 15:20||Profile|
| Re: |
Krispy wrote << As soon as someone on this forum can write a tome that even comes close to "The Institutes of the Christian Religion" or "The Bondage of the Will"... no one should be attempting to sit in judgement over these men. >>
To the contrary, there is an entire historic branch of Christianity dating back to Christ that believes there is no value in writing "a tome" as you say. A gargantuan book of doctrine may be of great value to Augustine, Calvin, and their followers, but even Paul only got a few pages long at the most. Paul actually said we should judge matters of this life. If these men only have their tomes to commend them, they are lacking.
Krispy wrote << John Calvin never had anyone executed. John Calvins role in Geneva has been greatly exaggerated. >>
This history has, of course, been debated extensively. I, for one, disagree. Calvin has blood on his hands. Not only is there an abundance of historical evidence against Calvin, but even some modern-day Calvinists are making apologies for Calvin's role in Geneva. Apostle John said that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
| 2012/5/30 15:21||Profile|
| no comparison|
Compare men like Dirk Willems, Michael Sattler,Felix Manz and others to Luther,Calvin,Zwingy I personaly find no comparison
| 2012/5/30 15:51||Profile|
| Re: Must Mofify Ny Statenent|
After reading through the posts I need to modify my stance about rejecting the reformers. I still believe much injustice was done to the ababaptist by the papist as well as the reformers. But then the reformers died for their belief in the truth by the papist.
In the end it was 500 years ago and none of us were around then. The best stance is all things are ours. Much can be gleamed from both the reformers and the anabaptist. So praise God for some of that being preserved at SI.
Now I like Krispy's idea of a steak. I also like the idea of a nice cold one. I leave you guessing what that steak will be washed down with. If I were to say another contro thread would be opened up.
This is Bearmaster signing off for that steak.
| 2012/5/30 15:59|
| Re: |
Thank you, Brother Bear. Though, I wish you guys would keep your liberties to yourself, to as not to cause the weak and babes to stumble - but I sure do love you guys.
Brother, I've prayed and prayed because I've felt this story about "the Admiral" wanting to come out and I have reason why I would like to do it here - and pray that you won't mind.
The reason I first called him, "Admiral" was - one day as I was heading up the hall to the Sunday School class - he was about 20 ft ahead of me, heading down the hall toward me and when I saw him, his cloths were all white - but as he got closer they changed to his regular suit color. My first thought was, "He looked just like an Admiral" [maybe cause I'm a Navy vet] - but The LORD spoke to my heart and told me "You saw that because, This Church is his ship." --- so when he got close enough I said, "Good morning, Admiral" but of course, didn't tell him why.
Then another time in that same location, he stopped to talk to me, and though he was smiling, his words sounded depressed and when he finished talking, I could feel the Holy Spirit come on me and the words just came out - "When 'it's over', the flowers and trees will be more beautiful than ever ...." etc that I can't remember all.
Months before this, I had canceled my Counseling sessions with him because The LORD told me that Pastor was going to have a heart attack, but I felt to NOT tell him. I knew it was because I would blame my problems for the cause of his heart attack, that I couldn't talk to him about them in sessions anymore. I told him that I was going to find a Christian psychologist for my problems at home and he was sort of hurt, but I couldn't tell him the real reason.
Anyhow, one Sunday, he was due to go to his mother's funeral in another State, after he finished preaching both services and while he was preaching, again I saw him with the white hair and all and he looked right at me [I sat in the back of that big sanctuary] and he said, "Shalom" right in the middle of his sermon. Strange, the workings of GOD.
The same day that he came back from taking care of his Mother's funeral was when he had the massive heart attack. I'm shaking as I type this, but he did survive and had a triple bi-pass - but though I remembered the word about "the flowers", I was besides myself for that whole year, until I was sure that he and his dear wife were O.K..
Well, the LORD did use him as my Moses. Not only did he save my life through counselfing but he was later instrumental in finding a couple to drive me up here in that U-Haul that everyone knew I could never have driven this far myself - besides all the prayers that went up from him and his wife and his group that met at his house and all of those elders, deacons and members.
I don't know, but I also felt that there was an annoiting on that little town and it 'may be' that GOD will also use him to be a type of Moses to that town as well some day ... but we'll see.
Yup, I reckon I'm an Pentecostal Anabaptist that's been so very much loved and accepted by some Reformed folks down South - and I'm sure he doesn't mind me expressing my opinions on "Whosoever will, Come".
GOD Bless and thank you for allowing me to share this. I've prayed for very many years that He would "Take me Home", so maybe [if I'm 'lucky' :) ] that's why I felt I needed to get this all out about my Pastor and Church - just in case.
That favorite song of mine is going through my head, "I can Only Imagine". Bless GOD!
| 2012/5/30 16:44|
| Re: |
Quote: Water? (hehe)
I leave you guessing what that steak will be washed down with.
| 2012/5/30 17:14|
| Re: In defense of Martin Luther |
Martin Luther knew his bible very well and in context. And Luther knew that what the Catholic Church have been teaching, and their practices in squeezing money out of all Catholics, and in particular from the poor, was positively anti Christian. They charged sums of money for seeing Catholic Religious relics that they prayers, hopes, and dreams may come true through the relics. Catholics were tricked into paying for indulgences as means to shorten the time of a dead relative or friend sufffered in purgatory. So proclaimed the Catholic heirarchy in Rome. And the Catholic Heirarchy placed no limit of how much it actually cost to eliminate their time in purgatory. Thus no one was ever able to give enough money. Luther criticised the Papacy for making Jacob Fugger, a Jewish man, the wealthiest man in Europe, by collecting the Catholic Indulgences from the people and delivering it to the Papacy with himself taking a percentage approved by the Papacy..
Even more important, Luther realized that salvation was not at all based on receiving the Catholic Sacrements. Rather, salvation was obtained instantaneously, by accepting the blood of Jesus Christ, the perfect Paschal lamb, as the ultimate Paschal Lamb, Jesus Christ, that washes away all sins for all time to all who believe in Jesus and accept this blood.
In his early ministry, Luther was very pro-Jewish. He actually defended them from persecution.
So what happened to Luther as he got older so that he became a madman, viciously hating the Jews and calling for their death. Luther became all around bitter, hateful, and violent.
The answer is medical!
Around 1523-24, Luther became to feel the effects of a disease that over time would drive him toward insanity. The disease is Tinitus. Tinitus is a constant and continuos sound in ones' ears. Luther was in constant pain from the noise that never went away. Check Tinitus and Martin Luther on the internet and you will understand what this disease did to him. Today there is treatment for Tinitus, but none in Luther's time. Two of Luther's brothers, and his father, also sufered from Tinitus.
By about 1529 or so, Luther had to hire a bodyguard to protect people around him from being viciously attacked by Martin Luther. His temperment and his writings were awful throughout the remainder of his life, and he wrote a lot of horrible things.
However, Luther was a very good theologian in the early years of his ministry. And He open the door, along with other Bible experts who broke with the Catholic Church, in order to return Christianity to what it was in the first three centuries after Christ ressurection on the Cross.
| 2012/5/30 18:09||Profile|