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"Folks it's not through politics and everyone who is running around telling me that we are going to organize and legislate holiness - you don't know your bibles! God raises up annointed fearless prophets and preachers of His word to bring a nation or generation to its knees, or to harden their hearts before judgement comes." - David Wilkerson

The famine has begun

 2012/5/10 21:21

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


Hi Brother Jim,


And others have bought into the lie that america is a christian nation.

Thankfully, I don't know any believers who feel this -- even if I have no doubt that it was founded upon many Christian principles (or at least what they assumed were "Christian" principles).

This afternoon, I was in a store that had a politically Liberal talk radio station on. Even the pundits on that local Liberal station admitted as much -- that America was deeply influenced by "Judeo-Christian principles."

However, no one is arguing that salvation is found in government, politics or even Christian influence on such things. Still, believers who live in this temporary country can still share their voice on issues that affect us, our families and neighbors.

Even though we live in a secular government, we often involve ourselves in those "government" issues. In fact, recently, I assisted a man who needed a passport and visa. We had to go down to the local Post Office (a government office) and then to a government immigration office.

If we were told no, I might have acted like the "persistent widow" who went over and over again to an "unjust judge" (or ruler) until we found a remedy. I didn't feel that it was wrong to assist this man any more than it would be to vote in elections, propositions or amendments (such as what people think marriage should consist of).

I said this previously: Although some of us may feel that we were saved from "right wing" Christianity, some people in this world would have no problem lumping you together with those people based upon your views. Even if you keep your faith to yourself -- "separate church from state" -- and never share your opinions or voice in matters of righteousness or unrighteousness (which they hope is true), many will still place you in the same group based solely upon your Biblical views. If you reject abortion or homosexuality as anything less than "normal" or worth "celebrating," you will be dismissed as a "right wing radical."

Still, I would like to inject that those of us here are not like those fickle believers who might place their faith in government...or man in general. Our faith is in Christ alone. We have already fled from Babylon and are looking only to Christ as the source of our being. We do have earthly duties (such as those mentioned in I Corinthians 7 and duties to provide for our families) and the sharing of our voice about issues that affect our families, the church and neighbors can be appropriate even when we maintain our heavenly citizenship.

A believer can share his/her voice to government in matters that are deemed important, in issues of right and wrong or in a desire for the furtherance of the Gospel. The persistent widow did it. Paul the Apostle did it. Esther did it. John the Baptist did it. Even David Wilkerson did it. It wasn't joining "right wing Christianity" but maintaining our faith without hiding it under the bushel of physical separation.

I hope this makes sense. We are simply being the children of light and sharing an opinion about matters when asked. No one should mistake this or suggest that it is the equivalent of placing faith in man (or government of men). No one should mistake it for living in Babylon either. It is shining the Light of Christ to a dark world by sharing a voice.

I read an interesting article from Melody Green (the widow of Keith Green) who co-founded Americans Against Abortion. She saw a deplorable practice (abortion) and stood up to it. She met government leaders -- including President Reagan. She was a guest when President Reagan issued the Emancipation Proclamation for the Preborn Child. She wrote an article about her participation:

There is a great song by Keith Green about this. Now, I know that this is not necessarily about voting or other methods of government involvement. Sometimes, pushing a child out of the path of a speeding truck can preserve the life long enough for the Lord to reveal Himself to them. In a way, a baby can be saved by being "persistent" with a government of consent.

by Keith Green

I find it hard to turn away
a billion starving people,
But what can one do, I've heard you say
-- "You can't save someone's life."

I want to save a life today,
I want to get someone close with my Father.
Bring them the bread of life today
I want to help them get stronger
help them last longer
And give them a chance to see Jesus.

I find it hard to just ignore
the murdered unborn children,
Yes times have changed, but still God warns,
you shall not take a life.

I want to save a life today,
I want to keep one alive for my Father,
-- Who will avenge the blood
Of weak and helpless ones someday
whose lives are spilled out like water,
Like lambs in the slaughter
and each one is handmade by Jesus.

I find it hard to turn away
a billion starving people,
a billion starving people.


 2012/5/10 22:09Profile


Though disheartening it should come as no surprise that Obana supports gay marriage. This has been his mind set. This is Romans 1 in operation. God is giving this nation over to judgement.

What I wonder is how many Christians will sin by voting a Mormon into the Presidency. There was a previous thread that stated how evil this system was. The satanic orgions of this system were pointed out. Yet posters in this forum keep telling us we are not voting for a pastor but a president, the best man for the job.

Honestly I wonder about the intellect here. There are some of you who will rise up to give a brilliant defence of your theological system. Yet in the sane breath justify voting for a man who comes out of a satanic cultic system. Go figure.

So Obama supports gay marriage so let's vote a Mormon in office. I think Hezwelling's wisdom is prudent. Flee Babylon. And beware of the man on the white horse. Hyoo Silver!

Bearnaster standing down.

 2012/5/10 23:28

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


Hi bearmaster,

You should not accuse believers of "sin" simply because they think that a Mormon might be a better choice than the other primary choice.

And, of course, you should not question the "intellect" of individuals with whom you simply disagree.

There are some of us who pray about all of these things and simply have a different opinion than the one you have.

We have "fled" Babylon. We have entered the straight gate and are on the narrow and difficult road that leads to life. Your opinions on this matter are not sufficient to make such a pronouncement regarding the intellect, sinfulness or eternal condition of those with whom you disagree.

Again, no one is urging anyone to vote for Governor Romney or settle upon the status quo. This article was simply taken from the news. There are some of us who might vote according to issues (like the definition of "marriage" that was voted upon this week in North Carolina). Some might even feel compelled to choose one unsaved man over another for a secular job in the government.

However, it is unwise to consider this to be an indictment on the souls of believers or to voice it so sternly here. We should be more careful with our words before pronouncing such things upon individuals that we have known -- in limited word only -- for just over a month.

I appreciate the fact that you feel so strongly about it. I even appreciate the fact that you can share such thoughts and opinions. Yet, it just isn't right to point the finger at those believers who might not share your opinions.

May the Lord guide us all in this.


 2012/5/11 0:55Profile

Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


I'm attaching one article for encouragement to my brethren who believe that our place as God's people are not in politics and affairs of the corrupted wordily systems, democratic, republican, communist, or whatever system.

Why I do not support Ron Paul for President
Special Edition

There are a wonderful variety of opinions in the Agrarian movement, and this is how it ought to be. Of course, just because there are multitudes of opinions does not mean that all (or any) of them are correct and have merit.

Agrarianism is not all Christian (it never was and neither will be before the Lord returns - Thomas Jefferson was not a Christian), and even among professing Christian agrarians there will be a wide expanse of ideas and positions. There were Yankee agrarians on the wrong side of the war of Northern Industrial Aggression, and I suppose there were a few Christians on the wrong side of that conflict as well. Such is the way things are, and I suppose if everyone agreed with me... well, it would be a better world but it might not be as interesting. That isn't to say that we're all right, because we are not... I am, but that shouldn't blunt the impact of what I am saying, which is that there are quite a few men who I like and respect and admire who are really phenomenally wrong on this particular subject.

By way of full disclosure, I must say that at one time I was an avid Reagan Republican and activist. My wife and I worked in politics as volunteers, I had dinner and conversation with Pat Buchanan in '92, I served as a County Precinct election judge in the '96 election - appointed by the Republican County Clerk. After that I was deeply involved in the Patriot movement (a ridiculously misnamed movement if ever there was one) and spoke all around the country at Patriot and Militia meetings, Preparedness Expos, etc. I have received standing ovations from large crowds for fiery patriotic speeches, and my flesh loved every minute of it. The problem is that I was fabulously wrong then, and I am mature enough now to admit it. I do not apologize for my zeal or for my love of freedom. I do, however, apologize for my blindness and errors that likely caused (and may still cause, since many of my writings are still out there) others to stumble.

When I was a young man, I was involved in many unsavory and un-Christian behaviors. Older folks would warn me, but I wouldn't listen. They just didn't understand... of course. That is the way of immaturity. When you have bought a false premise, and when you build your structure from the bottom up on a shaky foundation, then you will always think you are right because a cursory inspection shows the structure to be sound. Unhappily, when pressure is applied, the structure will collapse. When I was a firebrand in the Patriot circus there was one guy who would always burn me up. He was many men, but he was one guy. That guy was the guy who refused to be moved by my rhetoric, or to be inspired by my zeal. That guy would shake his head and walk away - muttering that one day I would probably "get it", and hopefully not too late. That guy had lived through the wars, fought the battles, and learned enough to know better. It is too simplistic and unfair to call the guy "cynical", "negative", "jaded", or "a pessimist".. being right about a situation doesn't make you cynical or a pessimist. It makes you a pragmatist, and truth ought not to be belittled just because it is unpopular and sometimes sad. That guy would email me and point out the fallacies in my logic, and the weakness in my foundation. He would always point out some blatant, obvious truths (the ones I didn't want to face because it would mean the death of my delusions and an end to the fantasy world I had believed since I was a child) and he would seriously burn me up. I would rant and rave against cynical "do-nothings" who always chide and snear, but never fight. I felt superior to that guy, because at least I was "doing something". Yeah. I was fooling myself, lying to my audience, and ignorantly supporting the system that was intent on killing my hopes of a better way of life. I was Otis, the town drunk from Mayberry, who always had a key to his own cell, and could let himself in and out whenever he pleased. I convinced myself that, so long as I could rant and rave, then I was free - and I never paused to focus on the velvet bars and chains in my heart and thinking, which were the love of the world, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life that kept me from obeying God regardless of what men do or who they elect. I forgot that I am a pilgrim and a wanderer, an ambassador for an absentee King, and a gazingstock and hateful thorn in the side of a nation and world that hates God.

In my hatred of Socialism and Communism, I became a fascist - a statist just the same.
In my hatred of Statism and Authoritarianism, I became a worshipper of the Goddess Libertas - an idolater just the same.
In my hatred of idolatry, theft, graft, murder, and greed, I became a supporter of a system where these sins are intrinsic and even necessary.
In my sheer hatred, I hated everything but the country, society, social structures, morals, culture, and religious system that hates God.

I am guilty, but I was conned...

I was conned into forgetting history, first - that my people have always been strangers, separate from the greed and avarice of the bloodthirsty nations around them. They have always been persecuted for their separatism and their unique and solitary devotion to God above earthly and worldly politics. I was conned into being ignorant of my own history as well. I was never taught, and I was too lazy to learn the history of God's people and heritage. When Rome became corrupted and evil beyond belief in the early centuries of the past millennium, my people didn't hang around and vote for the lesser of two (or three) evils. They fled to the valleys of the Alps and became the Valley people (the Vadois or the Waldenses). When they were invaded by the Romish armies of conquest, they didn't sit around and vote their way to happiness. They fled, or they fought, or they died saying NO to Rome. When many of them fled Europe for the Americas, they didn't start political action committees, or voting blocks. They worked the land as agrarians and worshiped God according to their consciences until they were restricted from doing so by the "Protestants" of New England. Then they went south. The true Baptists spread out across the south and became the bedrock of Southern Agrarianism. I was conned into being ignorant and lazy and into not caring about God's heritage. I was conned into forgetting that, because of the peculiar successes of southern agrarianism, the south was invaded, my people were killed, the political institutions were placed in the hands of military governors and the people were disenfranchised and FORCED to vote for one or more of their invaders, or not vote at all. The people who did these deeds are the ones who now require that I joyfully support their system of empire and conquest, which continues even today. They have not stopped killing and they have not stopped "democratizing" and they have not stopped pillaging, raping, looting, stealing, or colonizing - all in the name of freedom. I forgot that God taught his people how to live in foreign bondage and occupation, and at no time did that mean that they were to be assimilated completely into the worldly culture and society around them.

Now, I hate election years as much as I hate the wordly "holiday season" and for the same reasons. Because the same people, nice as they may be - but ignorant of the truth and of God's opinion on the subject, dance and flit around forcing their foreign practices and cultures on everyone else around them. Four years ago (and four years before that, and four years before that... and so on) I was inundated with emails and messages from do-gooding "christians" who were adamant that I pray... PRAY, PRAY, PRAY!!!! that God would not judge this country, and that He would give us a good, Christian leader. Hmm.... yeah right. The people are ignorant of God's pattern of justice, adjudication, and punishment. I received another one of these emails the other day from a good Christian man, who still somehow believes that there is still time to intercede on behalf of Judas Ameriot and his system of Baal. It's time for Isaiah 58, they say... Pray, Pray, Pray... Where in all of the Bible are we encouraged to pray for the support, succor, and success of the wicked or of a wicked system? Does not the Bible say, "Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies"? Is there any question that the Amerikan system hates God? While we are encouraged to pray for our enemies (Matt. 5:44), we are taught by Christ Himself what that prayer is supposed to entail (Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do). God does not overthrow wicked systems and nations by the electoral system, He overthrows them by 1st - giving them over to a wicked mind to do that which is inconvenient and wicked in His sight, then 2nd - by causing them to crumble from within due to sloth, greed, lust, and blatant sin, and 3rd - by bringing the enemy in like a storm to overthrow them and to destroy them. That is the history of God and nations.

But, but, but... 2 Chronicles! God promises to heal our land if we repent! Uh...

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. (2Ch 7:14)

How many ways can modernists be wrong? Let me count the ways...

1. If my people... not secular, greedy, imperial powers, but MY PEOPLE. In the Old Testament this referred to physical Israel, the nation who He chose out of the world. This was TYPE, fulfilled by the anti-type in the NT, not "Amerika", but the children and people of Jesus Christ, God of very God, the Son of God, the Messiah and head of the elect body.

2. which are called by my name... Called by His name... CHRISTians, not those called by the name of Amerigo Vespucci, which "Amerika" is. (An aside... Vespucci was a Roman Catholic son of the notary of the Money Changer's Guild of Venice - imagine that!). The people which are called by His name are the true Body and Bride of Jesus Christ, everywhere in the world, they are not Amerikans.

3. shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; not "continue in them", or "vote to prolong them", or "vote to defend them", but TURN FROM THEM, cease from them in humility and prayer. A vote in Amerika today is a vote to sustain the status quo, and the vote only is for the DEGREE of the status quo. One candidate is 100% for the status quo, and another is 75% for the status quo... The anti-establishment candidate is only 55% for the status quo.

4. then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin... until then I do not hear or forgive. Until then, the nation (professing Christianity) will continue in apostasy and heresy, and will continue in their love of the world, and will continue to be given over to the heathen, and be tramped underfoot. I WILL NOT HEAR THEM, says God.

5. and will heal their land. Not "Amerika", but the Church of Jesus Christ, the Body of Christ. Those who repent and abandon idolatry, wickedness, and every evil and crooked way - these are the nation of God, and the land of the truly free.

And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins. (Num. 16:26)

The Part that hurts...

This is the part that hurts, so gird up your loins. Think of this as me evaluating the old me, back when I was a red-blooded Amerikan and hip to install righteousness in her institutions. If the dart hits you too, then so be it - but, like I said, it will hurt...

The reason that people want to "fix" Amerika, is not because they want a righteous nation, or because they want righteous government and institutions. If they truly wanted that, then they would obey the scripture which commands that they flee iniquity, "come out from among her and be ye separate", and they put their hands not in with the wicked. People want Amerika fixed because it means a continuance of the status quo, and of the wicked ways, and of comfort and relative prosperity, and of 401k's, Monday Night Football, home mortgages, vacations, Google and YouTube. People want Amerika fixed because they love their dainty lives, and they cannot separate from worldliness or hate it. They like comfortable couches and 300 channels and on-demand video and the Paris Hilton/Wal-Mart culture of get it now, but get it.

Now, I have just become "that guy" and I shake my head at people who ought to know better. My love of this world has faded and has grown dim as God has revealed more and more of Himself to me. I do not seek peace and comfort in this world, because I do not plan to be long in it, and this is not my country. All political bluster, patriotic polemics, and flag-waving idolatry aside - I do not train my children to be participants in the great Amerikan experiment, or cogs in the great Amerikan machine. I train them to be lovers of God, and worshipers of Him, and to see duty in a far greater and deeper way than merely the pulling of a lever or the punching out of a "chad". Our God can cause us (Christians - not Amerikans) to persevere and succeed while we are hidden in the wilderness and in the palm of His hand. The storms that gather around us can pass over us while we are hidden in Him. Our God can sell us into slavery for our sins, He can punish us for our iniquities, or He can cause the waters from the mouth of His enemies which pursue us and our lives to be swallowed up by the earth. In any case, He is righteous and good and right. He does not need Ron Paul and neither do I. Though I have a carnal heart which is inclined towards the rhetoric of freedom and the machinations of political Liberty, it is just the carnal heart and not the mind of Christ that inclines me so. Amerika has a building that identifies its heart and symbolizes its mind; that building is the Capitol Building in Washington D.C. Atop that building is an idol made with hands, a statue of the Goddess Libertas (Persephone), called Lady Liberty to Amerikan idolaters. Her feet stand on her sacred ground, and I for one have nothing to do with her. She is the "goddess" of the underworld, and has her roots in paganism. From her went forth the decrees that crushed freedom and liberty in the Agrarian south, and from her went forth the laws that subjugated and destroyed the Agrarian cause. The passage of time does not make right of wrong, nor does it cleanse the blood of God's people, philosophy, and worldview from the land. I cannot support what God hates, and I cannot believe that fixing Amerika will satiate a just and righteous God. Ron Paul may be a "good man" (if there were such a thing), but He loves the wrong country, and His idolatry is no different from that of those who built the molten calf to worship.

Our greatest and most inalienable right is not the right to profit, land, travel, "freedom", or the right to keep the fruit of our labors. Our greatest and most inalienable right is the right to say no, and to not participate in the follies of the world. If God allows (and only if He allows) they can kill me and take my land. They can imprison me and chain me to a wall. They can waterboard me, or torture me to death. They can take my children and train them in their schools. They can rape the land for corn for the masses, or they can scrape it and put up a mall. They can burn it and make it a perpetual hissing , or they can sell it off to a people more inclined to bow to their will. What they cannot do is make me agree to it and participate in it. They cannot and they will not.

I've become the old guy in the corner - "that guy" who shakes my head at those who say the same things I once said, and fight for the things for which I once fought. I can't make anyone listen, but I can still say "no". They call Dr. Ron Paul "Dr. NO" since he votes no on almost everything. Good for him. He and his supporters, of all people, should understand why I will say no to him. My conscience doesn't allow any other position. If Ron Paul is the man they claim he is - then he will applaud that.

"No"... think about it.

Your servant in Christ Jesus,

Michael Bunker


 2012/5/11 5:06Profile


What I wonder is how many Christians will sin by voting a Mormon into the Presidency. There was a previous thread that stated how evil this system was. The satanic orgions of this system were pointed out. Yet posters in this forum keep telling us we are not voting for a pastor but a president, the best man for the job.

Honestly I wonder about the intellect here. There are some of you who will rise up to give a brilliant defence of your theological system. Yet in the sane breath justify voting for a man who comes out of a satanic cultic system. Go figure.

I'm not crazy about Romney, or anyone else running... but if Christians remove themselves from the political process then dont complain about the condition things will be in in a rather short amount of time in the future.

I'm not going to sit in judgement over another man's heart but I can not think of a single president in the last 100 years who I would say showed friuts of being a born again spirit filled believer.

So what is the difference between voting for a heathen like Obama or voting for a Mormon like Romney?

Huckabee was the only person I know of who came close to running in the final election who impressed me as a true believer.

I'm not crazy about the influence this will have on convincing a lot of Christians that the Mormon Church is "just another denomination". Be sure that will happen. But at this point what alternative do we have?

I will vote for Romney because of three issues: Abortion 1st and foremost. The economy 2nd, and his social conservatism on issues like gay marriage, etc.

Having him as President will not make America a Mormon Nation. It will certainly break down some walls, but all that means is that those of us who have the truth must be that much louder in proclaiming it.

Glenn Beck is actually way more influencial than Romney will be when it comes to the Mormon Church making inroads into mainstream Christianity. Many foolish and stupid pastors and Christian leaders endorse Beck and have him speak in their churches.

Glenn Beck is a cult of personality. Romney doesnt even have a personality.

Interesting to note, my next door neighbor is a Mormon. Been one for 30 or so years. Wonderful people... we are always inviting each other to Bible studies... and he actually voted against Romney in the primary the other day. Voted for Ron Paul.

What does that tell us?


 2012/5/11 6:50


In the last election, Christians everywhere were flattered by the current President. They were mesmerized, their salvation had come, so they thought. Obama entered in like any other politician, through flatteries. Obama will most likely get in again. He'll have the Gays, he'll have the youth, he'll have the African Americans.

Obama does not believe in the born again Christian experience. He believes that he is a Christian because his idea of being one is one that does good. That is the world's definition of being a Christian, doing good. He sees homosexual couples doing good and raising their adopted children and he sees nothing immoral in their conduct.

Now there is a twofold thing going on here. We can see Obama as someone who really is doing good for gays and lesbians or we can also see it that his Aides are telling him that if you want to be re-elected, we'll need to clear up the gay marriage thing right away so we can garner their support. I think it's the latter part that is generating this "good" idea about gay marriages.

I can't help but think of the old time preacher that prophesied in December 1989 stating that when America makes homosexual legal and they say it's alright, that is when this nation will see problems like they have never seen before. He mentioned that a new disease will arise that will be worse than AIDS and scientist will not be able to contain it, it will elude them, he even said it will have several strains. Once they think they contained it, it evolved into a worser virus. I love this part, "but my people that fear my name will be protected, those that will stand up for the truth of my word".

It doesn't matter if Mitt Romney is Mormon, there would be no sin in voting for him. Would Christians rather have him say that he is a Baptist and then after he is elected say that he is a Mormon?

He would be no different than Obama. Obama did the same thing. He tells everyone that he is a Christian, but look at him. Look at his policies, look at the Anti Christian things that this man has done.

What do we expect Mitt Romney to do? He can't get rid of the Gays, they are in the millions now. They are a force that needs to be reckoned with. If he is true to his convictions as a Mormon, all he can offer them is civil unions but not the full benefits of being equal with the one man and one woman marriage partnership.

The only way this nation can be saved is through a dynamic revival or war.

 2012/5/11 10:44

Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752


What I wonder is how many Christians will sin by voting a Mormon into the Presidency. There was a previous thread that stated how evil this system was. The satanic orgions of this system were pointed out. Yet posters in this forum keep telling us we are not voting for a pastor but a president, the best man for the job.

Honestly I wonder about the intellect here. There are some of you who will rise up to give a brilliant defence of your theological system. Yet in the sane breath justify voting for a man who comes out of a satanic cultic system. Go figure.

I agree with this 100%. How can anyone who calls themself a Christian vote for a Mormon to lead them? I am not questioning your Christianity, but only your common sense.

Think about it folks, your endorsing a CULT HEAD/LEADER to lead our nation. If that doesn't make you step back and say "WAIT", I don't know what will.

The Lord is in control. He will do as He wishes.


 2012/5/11 11:00Profile

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3323


Approved...In the last election, Christians everywhere were flattered by the current President. They were mesmerized, their salvation had come, so they thought. Obama entered in like any other politician, through flatteries. Obama will most likely get in again. He'll have the Gays, he'll have the youth, he'll have the African Americans.

Well you don't know your African Americans very well, they are probably the only race that has no approval at all for gays, at least the ones I personally know.


 2012/5/11 11:04Profile


All of this reminds me of Israel wanting a king. And he come riding in a white horse to save the Constitution and us. Hiyooh Silver. Forum you have been warned.

Bearnaster standing down and back to pray in the den.

 2012/5/11 11:24

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