C H Spurgeon - Free Will, A Slave (6)

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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : C H Spurgeon - Free Will, A Slave

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Re:

Quote:

Theology is not a bad thing. Theological terms that are man-made (i.e. Cal, Arm, etc..) are not ok.

Labels do serve a purpose, and it's not always a bad one. For instance I am very grateful that the church across the street has a label on the sign out by the road that says: Jehovah's Witnesses (it really does!).

Because of that label I know not to walk in there.

If a church has Reformed on it, or Methodist, or Baptist, or Episcopalian on it... I know what to expect. I know what I am walking in to.

I agree with you we should be more concerned about being a Christian and a follower of Christ. Absolutely... but at the same time, with all the divisions and variances of doctrine and theology I am rather grateful for labels.

"Calvinism" is just a name describing a form of theology. Thats all it is. The 5 points of Calvinism were not even thought up by Calvin. He was long dead at that point. It was in response to the 5 points of the Remonstrants.

Am I a Calvinist? Yep... and I am a football coach... and a Conservative Republican... and a firearms instructor... and a father... and etc etc...

Krispy

2012/5/8 16:03

Miccah
Member

Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

Re:

Quote:

Am I a Calvinist? Yep... and I am a football coach... and a Conservative Republican... and a firearms instructor... and a father... and etc etc...

Ok.

I'm a Christian.

_________________
Christiaan

2012/5/8 16:06

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Re:

I'm a Christian who wears many hats... and so are you and everybody else.

At the core we are Christians, but being Christians influences all the other things we are too. It sounds spiritual to say "I'm just a Christian"... but where the rubber meets the road is when we have to go out and be that influence in the world around us.

Thats where the hats come in.

Peter was a Christian who was a fisherman.

Krispy

2012/5/8 16:14

Solomon101
Member

Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 536
America's Flyover Country

Re:

Krispy Kritter stated

Quote:

I take it that you have not read many of Spurgeon's sermons before today, Solomon?

Actually I have had the green full hard cover set of Spurgeon's Complete Sermons since my college days. I have read most all of them. Some many times.
I either did not notice this theological chip on his shoulder or just let it go as I ate the fish and left the bones.

Krispy further stated

Quote:

Up until our over senstive and easily offended age preachers often used language that we would consider to be inflammatory. What you quoted from Spurgeon is pretty mild by comparison to others of that age and before.

I have certainly read much of it before. Luther is a common example most would know of. However, to lay the blame on "overly sensitive preachers" is, it seems to me, a considerable misappropriation of responsibility and a plain old error. It is not so much "the overly sensitive preachers" as the overly INSENSITIVE ones using their pulpit as a place to blast other believers in Christ that will not submit to their specific theological view.... regardless of the flaws Spurgeon's view contained. Spurgeon flatly called people who do not agree with his specific theological Calvinistic view "enemies.. that he would turn the guns on". Wonderful isn't it?!?!?! That would seem to ultimately be simple arrogance. That would certainly seem to be an example of "sowing discord amongst the bretheren". Something God specifically said He hates. However, my experience has been that a great many Calvinists ( certainly not all) do not even believe that those who will not submit to their yoke and brand of theology are even born again. I have seen that again, and again. Although he denies it in other places one wonders of Spurgeon on this matter. WHY would he call other believers "The enemy"?? It is abundantly clear in scripture who "the enemy" is. Perhaps we see a Fraudian slip in Spurgeon's tongue here. Just perhaps he actually meant what he said... he sees any of those who are not lining up and marching to his tune of Calvinism as "the enemy"...ones not even of God's kingdom but of the enemies.

Krispy also stated

Quote:

We've just become soft and feminized and cant handle it.

So you then agree with Spurgeon's way of presenting this? You feel the problem is the "softness" of the blood bought followers of Jesus that Spurgeon calls "the enemy" simply because they will not be bent into his mold? He also makes several remarks about the truth of his being "obviously so" and indicates that if you do not agree with him you are a simpleton. REALLY?!?!?

I am in a church that is about 60% male attenders. Hard working, hunting, fishing, farming, mostly blue collar, salt of the earth men that tend to eat lots of red meat. We lean strong to the testosterone side of things because every other fellowship in the area is on hyper estrogen overload. I attend church with guys that drive 4 wheel drives, skin deer, bale hay, can catch fish at will, work an honest days work plus some extra, spend time with their wives, take their kids on outings with them, live by the order of God- family-country, fire up the grill and invite their neighbors over for steaks so they can share their faith in Christ with them. However, they also generally know how to live at peace with people and are not accusing others simply because they refuse to agree with a particular theological point. They may be a lot of things but "femenized" is absolutely NOT IN ANY POSSIBLE WAY one of them. It is offensive and presumptuous to make that accusation of those who take exception to Spurgeon's attacks on those who won't bend their knee to his devotion to John Calvin.

With Spurgeon it seems one must eat the hay and leave the sticks. He certainly has some wonderful hay amongst his writing. That is why I own and read his sermons.For those parts I am thankful. However, his sowing of name calling, strife, discord, and the labeling of Christ's followers as "the enemy" is one batch of sticks It would seem we would all do well to avoid.

2012/5/8 16:14

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Re:

Quote:

"overly sensitive preachers"

I did not say that. You misquoted me and then built a whole post around the misunderstanding that resulted from the misquote...

So I dont really have a response because thats not what I said.

Krispy

2012/5/8 16:21

Solomon101
Member

Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 536
America's Flyover Country

Re:
Krispy, I did cut and paste your quotes. However, if it is a problem then simply change it to , "overly sensitive age" or "overly sensitive people". Whichever you feel more accurately reflects your thoughts and address the rest of the post. It changes nothing as far as the content of mine.

2012/5/8 16:39

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hmmhmm
Member

Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

Re:

good points have been made, the greatest danger to me is even tho we might find Spurgeons views and interpretation a very good match to our own and what we believe the word says, or wesley, or ravenhill or the church fathers. Or Piper, washer etc...

Is when we, ill take myself as an example, i started out more reformed in my begining of my christian walk, but after years of study, learning some greek etc etc i changed many of my views on reformed theology. I still belive much of reformed theology to be what the bible says but not all.

Still the danger that comes is when we do embrace a theology or a "petdoctrine" as our leaning, is when we come to the parts of scripture that does not "fit" our doctrine that we deal with them in an dishonest fashion.

I have done that...

we use phrases like

"that does not really mean ALL..."

or something else. When we try make out some parts of scripture where not written to believers etc.

this is very dangerous, or we use 500 words to describe what is really meant by the use of one word that even a child will understand. to keep our "favorite" doctrine intact.

Myself stopped this, and found i need not 5 points, even tho i find some truths in all 5 points of calvinism to some extent, they are not the FULL truth.

and i must be ready to say when i come to certain passgaes in scripture... It is all by God, i have nothing to do with my salvation, sanctification, ability to endure or atone for one single thing, i am but a filthy worm...

These i see and believe.

But I also find passages that speak of me holding fast or else... passages that tell me to do this or that or else...

And if the first or latter do not match up to my doctrine or theology, to deal dishonest about them is dangerous, and i have yet to find passages explained by any side to a satesfactory way to "fit in" into these doctrines, i read 20 commentarys on one verse to see on one perticular side what they said and i did not find one single answer that in a way dealt with the verse in a way i found satesfying to but is actually written there.

So in this twisting and bending scripture to safeguard our belifs are dangerous and se very much i am sad to say.

Better yet to say "I do not know...." but God knows..

Some say well as Krispy said and i agree, study study study, but no matter how much we study who can answer how can God be a man and god at the same time? how big is God?

we can not answer these questions, and as Tozer said, more intellectual women and men has tried to understand these mysteries for hundreds of years, yet we are so formed that we think we have solved it. And we may have for ourselves.

I think Keith Daniels sermon on this topic is very good, agree on some or little i think some good for all of us in it to ponder.

God bless the calvinists and the rest, may God bear fruit from us all as we are the pillars of truth...

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=19110&commentView=itemComments

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CHRISTIAN

2012/5/8 16:40

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Miccah
Member

Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

Re:

Quote:

It sounds spiritual to say "I'm just a Christian"...

You keep saying this Krispy. Why? Who is saying that "it sounds spiritual", but you.?.?

If you have issue with saying "I am a Christian", please take it up with the Lord, for it is in the book that He wrote.

Quote:

...but where the rubber meets the road is when we have to go out and be that influence in the world around us.

I agree 100%. Let's go preach the cross and Christ crucified, not some man made theological term. Let's show the world what and who a Christian is in Christ. Let us carry our crosses. Let us feed the poor, help the widows, fullfill the Great Commission.

Let us not spread the theological terminology of men.

Quote:

Peter was a Christian who was a fisherman.

Yet, a fisherman is not a theology, unless you want to say that being a fisher of men is a theology, which we may agree on.

Be blessed Krisper

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Christiaan

2012/5/8 16:42

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Re:
OK... this is the part where everyone begins to misunderstand everyone else... I'm sure I'm missing something here too. I dont really know how to clarify any better what I am trying to say, so in the interest of keeping things light and friendly I'm just gonna bow out now. Krispy

2012/5/8 17:00

David01-72
Member

Joined: 2012/3/23
Posts: 58
Texas

Re:

Quote:

but at the same time, with all the divisions and variances of doctrine and theology I am rather grateful for labels.

Brother should we label ourselves just because of many theologies and doctrines that are out there. Should we worry about labels or knowing the TRUTH through Christ and Christ only. I saw a video about this brother who claims to be a Calvinist and says that "its better to label ourselves because the word Christian is misused". Well i agree with the word Christian getting misused and anyone could call their selves Christian, but we should not label ourselves anything but Christians, we should should let Christ decide who are His sheep, who are His true followers and we should stop arguing about men's doctrine and start praying for understanding of knowledge, again please don't get offended brother.

God Bless
David C

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David Cisneros

2012/5/8 19:43

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