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 Re: The Scriptural Position

Quote:
...for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure. Phil 2:13

 2012/5/7 14:25
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 693
Texas

 Re: Did Peter get it right?

Could someone explain these words of Peter and the implications for this topic?

"Then Peter opened his mouth and said: In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation whoever fears Him and works rigtheousness is accepted by Him."

Did Peter really "perceive in truth?" Do men dead in sin work rigtheousness and fear the Lord? Did Noah? Did Job? Did Samuel? Did Joseph? Did Zechariah and Elizabeth? Did Simeon?

My question concerns the implication of statements regarding men's incapacity to do good? Is there a differentiation between being enslaved to sin and capacity to do righteousness or is this a state that co-exists in a man? If men are incapable of doing righteousness, please explain why it appears that the Holy Spirit led some writers to describe the lives and actions of these I have mentioned in the way the record contains them?

makrothumia


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2012/5/7 14:55Profile









 Re:

This is a good discussion so far, lets commit to keeping it that way, bretren!

Total depravity does not mean that people are as evil as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Thus, even acts of generosity and altruism are in fact egoist acts in disguise. All good, consequently, is derived from God alone, and in no way through man.

Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Genesis 8:21: "And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.

Job 15:14: What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?

Job 15:15: Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water!

Job 25:4-6: How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure? 5 Behold, even the moon is not bright, and the stars are not pure in his eyes; 6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"

Psalms 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Psalms 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."

Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."

Ecclesiastes 9:3: "This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."

Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"

Jeremiah 13:23: (NIV): "Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

Isaiah 64:6 "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away"

Isaiah 64:7 "There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you, for you have hidden your face from us and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities."

Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand."

Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."

John 3:19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."

John 6:44: "[Jesus said,] 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"

John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"

John 8:34: "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"

Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

Romans 3:23: "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"

Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (our depravity being emphasised in the concept of being "dead"; only something external -i.e. God- can give a dead man life)

Titus 3:3: "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another."

Krispy

 2012/5/7 15:08
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 693
Texas

 Re:

Romans was a letter written by Paul to the Christians in Rome.

:-)

Your turn.

makrothumia


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2012/5/7 15:11Profile









 Re:

Sorry... I decided that was too "tit-for-tat" so I edited that out... lol

Krispy

 2012/5/7 15:15









 Re:

Quote:
Oh that more of these reformed brethren would be more baptized in the Spirit so that they would receive greater enlightenment so that God could use them in a greater measure.



rbanks, you know I love ya... but this is bothersome. The insinuation that people hold to reformed theology because they lack some measure of the Holy Spirit in their lives is a little bit insulting, and certainly not Biblical.

I dont see anywhere in scripture where Paul prayed for people to get more of the Spirit so their doctrine would get straightened out. No, he actually said that we are to "study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Tim 2:15.

:-)

Krispy

 2012/5/7 15:24
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 693
Texas

 Re:

Can any brother or sister point me to a work or message that addresses my question? I can follow to a great extent much of the teachings on total depravity, but whenever I regard some of the men and women I have mentioned, I get "lost in the maze" so to speak.

If any of you know where to point me, it might not only help myself, but those with similar questions. Knowing that we can only "know in part" - humbles me, but I am definitely open to the very real possibility that another person has received insight into this same question that I have not yet received.

makrothumia


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2012/5/7 15:31Profile
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 531
America's Heartand

 Re:

I was pretty shocked and disappointed to read this by Spurgeon. He approaches it from a very antagonistic view and flatly called those who follow Jesus, but did not agree with his view of Calvinism, "enemies". WOW!

From the opening paragraph of the article containing Spurgeon's quotes-

Quote:
This is one of the great guns of the Arminians, mounted upon the top of their walls, and often discharged with terrible noise against the poor Christians called Calvinists. I intend to spike the gun this morning, or, rather, to turn it on the enemy, for it was never theirs; it was never cast at their foundry at all





really..?!?!?! Spike a gun and turn it on the enemy... those who do not embrace his views on the topic....wow.

 2012/5/7 15:33Profile









 Re: God's Choosing!

Quote:
Could someone explain these words of Peter and the implications for this topic?



I hope this helps answer your question makrothumia.

Quote:
6 But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality) well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised 8 (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), 9 and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. Galatians 2:6-9



Quote:
16 But if you have understanding, hear this; Listen to the sound of my words.17 shall one who hates justice rule? And will you condemn the righteous mighty One, 18 Who says to a king, worthless one, To nobles, wicked ones; 19 Who shows no partiality to princes nor regards the rich above the poor, for they all are the work of His hands? 20 In a moment they die, and at midnight people are shaken and pass away, and the mighty are taken away without a hand. 21 For His eyes are upon the ways of a man. Job 34:19-21



The partiality which Peter is referring to may be a general partiality such as in the Job passage, but his ministry was to the Jews for whom partiality was everything. "Chosen of God" makes separation. In asking, "Do men dead in sin work rigtheousness and fear the Lord? Did Noah? Did Job? Did Samuel? Did Joseph? Did Zechariah and Elizabeth? Did Simeon?" you are asking about men and women who were able to please God and therefore were given a testimony in God's Word. "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated" is a separation made visible by a scarlet thread and Jacob's hand grasping Esau's heal. In visibility Esau was first, but God chose Jacob. Could Jacob as a baby have been 'better than 'Esau?"

God simply chose Jacob. He made a separation contrary to the appearance. Esau was delivered first, and is the first born. Jacob is delivered second and is therefore excluded from his father's inheritance. Yet the scarlet thread and the grasping hand clearly show that God has chosen other than. God made another visibility.

God chose Noah, Job, Samuel, Joseph, Zacheriah, Elizabeth and Simeon. At the same time they all demonstrated in their lives God's choosing through obedience. The power to obey comes from choosing God. Today we have a better Covenant through Christ crucified for sin. But we still have to choose to obey God if we are to have a testimony such as those you have named. All these men and women are only visible from the countless millions, because God made them visible to men through their lives in their own day. Even today through God's word. This is the testimony of God.

 2012/5/7 15:46
rnieman
Member



Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 146


 Re:



"Total depravity does not mean that people are as evil as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Thus, even acts of generosity and altruism are in fact egoist acts in disguise. All good, consequently, is derived from God alone, and in no way through man."

It doesn't mean that and unregenerate person can't choose between evil or good. Even though any good they may do, will do absolutely nothing in regards to salvation.

Deut 24:16
16“Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons
be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for
his own sin.

Ezekiel 18: 19-20
19“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. 20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Russ

 2012/5/7 16:04Profile





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