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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : C H Spurgeon - Free Will, A Slave

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rnieman
Member



Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 146


 Re:


Savannah wrote:
“It also fails miserably when tested by Scripture as I will briefy show;

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Romans 6:8: Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

Notice in the greek that “believe” is in the Present Indicative Active tense, signifying not a onetime event of believing, but rather past, present, and future.

Savannah you seem to be divorcing eternal life from the past, present, and future tense of the words believe and faith in scripture, which is heavily emphasized throughout scripture. You continue on with:

“John 10:28 And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. “

But in John 10:25-28 we read-
25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Again Savannah look at the verb tense in verses 25-26 they are Present Indicative Active tense. Then read 27-28 and notice how “believe” in the PIA verb tense (past, present, & future) is married to “eternal life” . You’re incorrectly reading the text. Ongoing faith is married to eternal life, not a once upon a time faith married to eternal life. You continue with:

“And finally,to sum it all up;

Praise be to our Great God and Savior,

Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the world began: But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Tim.1:9,10”

In verse 9 we see “in Christ Jesus” corporate election. In verse 12 we read

12For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

Verse 12 uses the word “believed”, which is in the Perfect indicative Active tense indicating similarly to the present indicative active tense, that it is indicating past, present, and future action.

Eternal life is married to ongoing faith, nowhere in these verses that you presented is your concept of eternal life apart from abiding faith found. Nor, if you're going to go there, is the concept of “they never were saved in the 1st place if they fell away”.

Bless you,

Russ

 2012/5/22 12:37Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, although i am not a calvanist brother i am a brother none the lest and anyone who states that calvinism is easy to chop down with enough biblical knowlege is a very proud and elitest statement since it has been argued over for years to no avail.it is not important what you believe about your security because you are not in control over it and i would hate to see you loose your salvation over it. it is like watching folks arguing over a door and getting angry over whether it is an entrance or an exit.jimp

 2012/5/22 12:49Profile









 Re:

Quote:


Old Joe asked
Quote:
So Solomon and Bearmaster, do you have everlasting life or not?
OJ



Absolutely.



If what you have is everlasting, that means it can and will endure all things without end, just like the real Solomon, who though he fell into gross idolatry yet the Lord owned him as a son from the beginning all the way through to the end of his life.

It is not by our grip of God that any are saved, it is by His grip on us.

If you like analogies here is one that is closer. By having mass, every object has a force of gravity associated with it, even the human body has a gravitational force. However, to allude that the body's gravitational force is sufficient to keep you on the earth is as foolish as the allusion that it is your grip on God that holds you to Him. It is the GF of the earth that holds you down. None know why there is a gravitational force, or have been able to sufficiently explain it, it just simply is. Same with God's grip on mankind.

Tell me the reason your "free" will inclines one way and someone else's inclines another way, without forgetting 1 Cor 4:7.

Philippians 2:13   For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Conversely, the responsibility of man in sanctification is not to save himself or keep himself saved, it is to bring glory to God after which we are still just unprofitable servants. He who works to keep his own salvation works not out of love for God but fear of loss. It can be no other way.

OJ

 2012/5/22 15:21









 Re:

Here is what I have, I know God personally.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I know God the Father and the Eternal Son of God. Nothing I can do can do can cause me to UNKNOW either, all that ever happens whether in sin or sanctification only causes me to know the Godhead better, but never causes me to UNKNOW either.

Once you know someone it is just not possible to UNKNOW them. This is what you are asking when saying that everlasting life is not a permanent condition set up in the heart of a believer.

Everlasting life is a present permanent reality in every believer. Those who know some part of the Trinity differently than that revealed, or simply know OF same rightly revealed, do not know God and do not have everlasting life, period.

When you KNOW God, you learn that EVERY right thought of God debases self and exalts God. Unlike that seen here over and over, when someone trods on your reputation, you don't defend it, because you just don't care about protecting something worthless. All that matters is that God and his Gospel is not blasphemed.

The greatest defenders and justifiers of self are the furthest from knowing God.

OJ

 2012/5/22 15:40
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 531
America's Heartand

 Re:

Old Joe,

It is this simple.

"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, Who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. " 1 Tim 2:3-4.

" The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance". 2 Pet 3:9

Do you believe these things or not?

 2012/5/22 17:07Profile









 Re:

As here yup.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

They throw the door open on the responsibility of man so that man cannot blame God for his damnation.

And do you know what the verses I quoted are for. So men will not take credit for their own salvation. If you go to hell it is your own fault, but if you are saved it is only because of God. Both cases humble man.

Like the converging of humanity and deity in Christ, these two converging thoughts always trouble those who refuse to see the other side. All you want to see is your own part in your salvation so that you can feel good about having done it, it gives you something to boast about, but gospel silences all boasting.

The pride in man works opposite to humbling effects of the gospel though, it wants to take some credit for his own salvation and find a way to blame God for his damnation.

OJ

 2012/5/22 21:18
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 531
America's Heartand

 Re:

OJ stated concerning the verses in 1 Tim and 2 Peter

Quote:
They throw the door open on the responsibility of man so that man cannot blame God for his damnation.



Well.... I guess so.

However, that was never in my thoughts to bring attention to. My single and only point is that both scriptures clearly proclaim that GOD WANTS all people to be saved. If they perish outside of faith in Christ they do so against His will. That seems fairly easy to see in those, and other scriptures. However, Calvinism flatly denies that reality. Calvinism claims that God predestined many to NOT come to faith and instead perish into hell by His preordained will for them. Calvinism actually claims there are many that God simply does NOT want to come to faith in Him and therefor He did not "elect" them.

It seems you totally missed the point . A point drawn entirely from those scriptures.

You then state
Quote:
All you want to see is your own part in your salvation so that you can feel good about having done it, it gives you something to boast about,


Really? I call upon the Lord to judge on this. Your accusation is 110% utterly, absolutely, totally, and completely false. My ONLY intent was to draw attention to what is a crystal clear distinction between Calvinism and what many scriptures clearly teach about God's will for the salvation of mankind.

For you to go beyond that and cast personal affronts at another reveals much.... However, I sadly find that far to often the norm amongst those holding to Calvin's teachings.

So, in one final attempt to make it very simple-

"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, Who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. " 1 Tim 2:3-4.

" The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance". 2 Pet 3:9

Either these scriptures are true or they are not. I believe they are. However, they also are irreconcilable with core tenets of Calvinism. THAT WAS AND IS THE ONLY POINT.

Decide what you will... or believe that what you decide was predestined by God for you to act out as a puppet as He pulls the strings... it matters not one bit to me.

I simply posted 2 scriptures and asked if you believed them. Why that evoked such a response from you I really do not know, unless it was something in those scriptures that actually upsets you.

 2012/5/22 22:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Really? I call upon the Lord to judge on this. Your accusation is 110% utterly, absolutely, totally, and completely false.



As stated before:

"When you KNOW God, you learn that EVERY right thought of God debases self and exalts God. Unlike that seen here over and over, when someone trods on your reputation, you don't defend it, because you just don't care about protecting something worthless. All that matters is that God and his Gospel is not blasphemed.

The greatest defenders and justifiers of self are the furthest from knowing God. "

May the Lord judge between me and thee to the utmost severity of His judgment.

FWIW I am not Calvinist.


OJ

 2012/5/23 0:47
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

hi brother solomon

i would like submit that many are called but few are chosen ,,,many are drawen by the spirit but few are efectual called chossen and saved

god has pacients with all that he calls and draws ,,and wants all of those in the church to come to true repentance ,,that is the contex ,the apostals speaks as a man ,,tho god knows who are his sheep and they believe because they are his sheep ,,which is in contrass ,to those who do not believe becase that are not of god ,,elect of god ,,or his sheep

can i humble submit ,that jesus said he spoke in pararbles so that certaint one would not hear and under stand ,lets they would turn and be heal ,,so conclusion is that there were ones who god did not offer the gosple to ,,jesus said to you it has been givern to no the mystery of the gosple , but to them ,it has not

the bible talks about false teachers being apointed to destrustion .. it was gods will to apoint some to destruction,, the leter of jude and the peter spoke of this

there are many instance in scripture whare the contex ,regarding the the use of christ dieing for the whole world the spirit being poured out on all flesh ,,is talking about the gentiles as well as the jews ,,not the literal whole world ,,as we know just by the prophecy of joel wich peter said was fullfiled at the day of pentacost ,, christ blood was a propisheation not for us only but also the whole world ,, was a jew saing not just for the elect jews but also the elect gentiles

christ sacrifice is a shadow of the of the old

and it was for the rement that came to god in repenteance and kept the law ,it wasnt for the unrepenent

so christ sacrafice is for the repentent rement

there is no wasted blood ,,,god did not die in vain

it was for the sins of his people ,the ones who the father gave ,,the ones who he for knew

it was an onipertent scacrifice ,,,persifick

god didnt need to die for those who reject there concences and the gosple

im not a calvinists ,,but from whay i know ,this subjest has been throughly medtated on by many who come under the theologaly banner ,,,there is no dening scripture in there eyes ,,it comes down to an honest interprtation in there eyes ,,,and i can agree to some of what is taught by them

blind fold election is what i dont agree with ,,,
and hypa cavinism is also a hell deserving doctrine

there is much to glem from the five points of calvinistm ,as is from the weaslyen ariminanism

and mush to respect in the man john wesly who exorted people to stay close to the doctrines of calvinism ,and said whitfield ,was man like no there he new ,and he compared him to the apostals

we need to love one another as true brothers if we are truly born of god and as weasly said stay close to each other doctrines ,,even the carasmatic zac poonan spoke highly of calvinists ,,and said when he prayed ,he prayeed as a calvinist ,but whn he preached ,he preached as a arminian,,,,,,,,let us bless god for his divers creation ,,he has made men different ,we arent robots
and we see the gosple through different shades gthrough a glass darkly ,,let god be true and let every man be a lier

let us not think we know the mind of god perfectly ,,but lets look to jesus who did ,,and look to under stand one other and not be provoked to fruitless debates ,,lets us have the motavation to want to undestand one another ,for a closer bond in the spirit ,and no more ,let us resist the temptation of the evil one to be angy with one another

i pray that for me ,and for my brothers

blessings

 2012/5/23 5:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Unlike that seen here over and over, when someone trods on your reputation, you don't defend it, because you just don't care about protecting something worthless. All that matters is that God and his Gospel is not blasphemed.

The greatest defenders and justifiers of self are the furthest from knowing God. "

May the Lord judge between me and thee to the utmost severity of His judgment.

FWIW I am not Calvinist.



The Apostle Paul defended himself against false accusations of what he was teaching and Solomon was completely right to defend his beliefs against what you or anyone else would say against what he believes.

And yes, you are a Calvinist, though maybe not a 5 or 7 pt Calvinist - [unconditional] "Eternal Security" came from him and not the Apostles nor the early church writters that sat under them called the ECFs.

You and Savannah make a good pair of accusers of the Brethren and without knowledge of the people that you attack. Neither of you play the ball and not the man. You both attack the person's character and not just address what they've written. Attacking the messengers rather than just what they believe and have written. Cut people's persons to shreds when you know nothing about them.



Jesus died to save "WHOSOEVER will" that comes to Him by faith.


And there has been and is and will be a Great "falling away" as we've seen since the beginning and we're seeing it presently and will see increase as that Day approaches. Most especially amongst them that have a twisted view of eschatology - such as those that believe that all prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD.
Those that have become and will become cast-away or shipwreck their own faith by their own choosing are Scripturally going to increase as we get further into the Last days.



 2012/5/23 5:26





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