Old Joe,You Posted
Quote:Far too many verses that have been posted and can be that prove out that a person can "fall away" of their own freewill.Each of those must be done at the expense of everlasting life. It is real simple, right now do you have EVERLASTING life? Yes or no.
There is a very serious imbalance in what we call Reformation history. Martin Luther and John Calvin are hailed as heroes. We are told they gave us scripture, faith, and grace. We even celebrate a theology called 'Calvinism'.Yet who has heard of Felix Manz, Pilgrim Marpeck, Conrad Grebel, or Memos Simon? Who has heard of the Anabaptist? I imagine what many have heard concerning these saints have come from the mouths of the Calvinistic Reformers and their views on the Anabatist were less than complimentary.The Anabaptist seemed to capture more of the spirit of first century Christianity than the reformers did. They believed that one had to be born again. The birth was voluntarily. One came to Christ by their choice. These saints did not compel people to come to Jesus by sword or gin. They compelled by life and love. They trusted in the Spirit to bring people to Christ. They believed once a person came to Christ one lived a life marked by holiness. The Anabaptist believed one followed Christ in baptism. They became known as the rebatizers. The Anabaptist suffered for their committment to Christ. Much at the hands of the Papist and the Protestants.What I am sharing is documented history but not well known. Denny Kennaston has an excellent series in the Anabsptist. It is on SI. I would commend it.Though the Reformers had correct doctrine there was very little heart change. They compelled obedience to God by sword and the gun. They believed that the reformation could only be sustained by the power of the state. The reformers did not trust in the Holy Spirit. To them the Holy Spirit was a theological abstract. Not a living reality.What I am stating here is historical reality. Leonard Verduin, a professor at Calvin seminary has written two books. They are entitled The Reformers and their Stepchildren and Anatomy of a Hybrid. Verduin, himself of reformed suasion, documents who the aAnabaptist were and their treatment at the hard of the Protestant Reformers. Excellent reading.Those who embrace Calvinism are holding to a theology of the head. There is no Spirit or heart in this theology. Indeed there 8s no love of Christ in this theology. It is devoid of the Spirit. Indeed I see very little that the Reformers or even the Puritains that followed them knew the Holy Spirit apart from a theological construct.Jesus calls us into a theolgy of the heart. Look at John 15. It speaks if an organic relationship of life and love. Not a theology of head and anger.Posted by Bearmaster.
jimp,LeePadah,and Old_Joe, thanks for contributing to this thread as your posts have been refreshing.
So Solomon and Bearmaster, do you have everlasting life or not?OJBTW everlasting life can't be compared to a flashlight.
There is an excellent scene in the movie Cromwell. Here you see the Parliamentarians marching out singing the Hundreth Psalm. They are going out to vanquished the forces of King Charles who was a papist. The Parliamentarians were Calvinistic. Excellent example of the reformed idea of church and state.The Baptist in England did not fare well under Cromwell's rule. Very close parallels to today.Bearnaster.
"Perhaps if I use a natural analogy..."Your analogy is an insult to Christ and His Spirit which is given to His beloved ones. That Eternal Life is Christ Himself;For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and testify, and show to you that eternal life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us. 1 John 1:2 It also fails miserably when tested by Scripture as I will briefy show;Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.If you or any can rid yourself of death which reigns by sin,or to use your own words,"choose to throw it[death] into a trash can, have it hauled to the landfill and buried under a million pounds of debris",I'd seriously consider what you're attempting to prove. But none can! You're either dead in transgressions and sins or alive in Christ. If you've not passed from death to life then you abide in death. Life or death is not a separate entity which can be divided from the being whch posseses it as you attempt to prove in your analogy. Also,you'll see in the verse that follows,that what I've stated is no mere philosophical jargon. Note the words,'them' and 'they'. No disconnect between the person and the Life they posess.John 10:28 And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. And finally,to sum it all up;Praise be to our Great God and Savior,Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the world began: But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Tim.1:9,10
A question. Can somebody be elect of God and not have a life to demonstrate it? If one says God chooses from all eternity but no life testifies to that choice then are they truly born again? Are they really elect?If memory serves I believe this is what Arminous and Edwards were standing against in their day. There were those who said they were chosen by God. But there was no change of heart to reflect that change.Just my thoughts.Bearnaster.
hi,many times i have typed this and told this; when one goes to an altar to make a dicision for Christ , he is going to make a decision to die ... altars are places of sacrifice.repentance is when you put your life to death and give the reigns to Jesus. gal:2 20 expplains this well. the problem we have is not eternal security but false security. with Jesus in charge of your life,you are secure.i have seen drastic changes in hundreds of people as the Holy Spirit takes over and begins the sanctification process...jimp
Not to offend anyone I will use a supernatural analogy.When the martyr Jim Elliot said: " He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can never lose."He is using the same language Jesus used comparing the temporal with the eternal. He is basically saying that we can not keep our life here on earth because the days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.but if we give this life to God we will gain eternal life which will last forever and ever and ever.Jesus used the same language when He said to not lay treasures on earth where moth eat and rust corrupt but rather lay treasures in heaven where it will last forever.In the words of Peter: " an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you"The case here that Jesus, the Apostles,or Jim Elliot are making is "Not" that eternal life can not be lost even if we are unfaithful but rather that eternal life compared to a temporal life is the inheritance of those who choose to trade this life for it. Let me word it another way.When Jim Elliot said: " He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can never lose."He is not saying that eternal life can not be lost by someone who will not remain faithful to the end. That is not at all what he is refering to.He is rather saying that those who choose to trade this life that can easily be lost for one that can not be lost because of its very nature being eternal are not fools. In other words, he, Jesus, and the Apostles are not discussing the unconditional eternal security of the believers but rather comparing two things that are vastly different in their nature and how fool it would be to hold onto the one with the temporal nature at the risk of loosing the one with the eternal nature.Lord, give us wisdom.God bless.
Old Joe asked
So Solomon and Bearmaster, do you have everlasting life or not?OJ