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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : C H Spurgeon - Free Will, A Slave

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Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 531
America's Heartand


Old Joe,

You Posted

Far too many verses that have been posted and can be that prove out that a person can "fall away" of their own freewill.

Each of those must be done at the expense of everlasting life.

It is real simple, right now do you have EVERLASTING life? Yes or no.

Friend, just because you can not make your human mind understand the scriptural concept in no way negates the truth of it. I refer not to you specifically, it is true for all of us.

Perhaps if I use a natural analogy such as you did.

If I had the ability to give you a flashlight that had eternal batteries and would never go out for all eternity then it could be said that I had given you eternal light. If how ever you choose to throw it into a trash can, have it hauled to the landfill and buried under a million pounds of debris then you would no longer posses the eternal light. It is the light of the flashlight in my analogy that is eternal... not your possession of it. It is yours as long as you choose to keep it. However, if you willingly choose to discard the flashlight then it is no longer yours.


The exact same ting is true in the issue of eternal life. The life is eternal.. however you may discard it if you choose to. The eternal life of God does not cease... just your part in it.

Again, far, far to many scriptures bear this out. You acknowledged that in your post. However, just because it is a difficult concept for your mind to grasp does not negate those truths in scripture.

I post this not to argue the point but rather to illustrate it more clearly.

Caps were used for emphasis on specific words only. No yelling was intended.


 2012/5/22 9:57Profile

 Re: There is an imbalance

There is a very serious imbalance in what we call Reformation history. Martin Luther and John Calvin are hailed as heroes. We are told they gave us scripture, faith, and grace. We even celebrate a theology called 'Calvinism'.

Yet who has heard of Felix Manz, Pilgrim Marpeck, Conrad Grebel, or Memos Simon? Who has heard of the Anabaptist? I imagine what many have heard concerning these saints have come from the mouths of the Calvinistic Reformers and their views on the Anabatist were less than complimentary.

The Anabaptist seemed to capture more of the spirit of first century Christianity than the reformers did. They believed that one had to be born again. The birth was voluntarily. One came to Christ by their choice. These saints did not compel people to come to Jesus by sword or gin. They compelled by life and love. They trusted in the Spirit to bring people to Christ. They believed once a person came to Christ one lived a life marked by holiness. The Anabaptist believed one followed Christ in baptism. They became known as the rebatizers. The Anabaptist suffered for their committment to Christ. Much at the hands of the Papist and the Protestants.

What I am sharing is documented history but not well known. Denny Kennaston has an excellent series in the Anabsptist. It is on SI. I would commend it.

Though the Reformers had correct doctrine there was very little heart change. They compelled obedience to God by sword and the gun. They believed that the reformation could only be sustained by the power of the state. The reformers did not trust in the Holy Spirit. To them the Holy Spirit was a theological abstract. Not a living reality.

What I am stating here is historical reality. Leonard Verduin, a professor at Calvin seminary has written two books. They are entitled The Reformers and their Stepchildren and Anatomy of a Hybrid. Verduin, himself of reformed suasion, documents who the aAnabaptist were and their treatment at the hard of the Protestant Reformers. Excellent reading.

Those who embrace Calvinism are holding to a theology of the head. There is no Spirit or heart in this theology. Indeed there 8s no love of Christ in this theology. It is devoid of the Spirit. Indeed I see very little that the Reformers or even the Puritains that followed them knew the Holy Spirit apart from a theological construct.

Jesus calls us into a theolgy of the heart. Look at John 15. It speaks if an organic relationship of life and love. Not a theology of head and anger.

Posted by Bearmaster.

 2012/5/22 10:14

Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752


jimp,LeePadah,and Old_Joe, thanks for contributing to this thread as your posts have been refreshing.

lol, thanks! You gave me a smile this morning. Sorry for not being refrshing to you.

Your post sort of reminds me of these verses...

2 Timothy 4:2-4, "Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."

Please note that I am not calling anyone in this post a false teacher. Blessings!


 2012/5/22 10:25Profile


So Solomon and Bearmaster, do you have everlasting life or not?


BTW everlasting life can't be compared to a flashlight.

 2012/5/22 10:31

 Re: Disturbing

There is an excellent scene in the movie Cromwell. Here you see the Parliamentarians marching out singing the Hundreth Psalm. They are going out to vanquished the forces of King Charles who was a papist. The Parliamentarians were Calvinistic. Excellent example of the reformed idea of church and state.

The Baptist in England did not fare well under Cromwell's rule. Very close parallels to today.


 2012/5/22 10:31

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2071

 Re: Eternal Life

"Perhaps if I use a natural analogy..."

Your analogy is an insult to Christ and His Spirit which is given to His beloved ones. That Eternal Life is Christ Himself;

For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and testify, and show to you that eternal life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us. 1 John 1:2

It also fails miserably when tested by Scripture as I will briefy show;

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If you or any can rid yourself of death which reigns by sin,or to use your own words,"choose to throw it[death] into a trash can, have it hauled to the landfill and buried under a million pounds of debris",I'd seriously consider what you're attempting to prove. But none can!

You're either dead in transgressions and sins or alive in Christ. If you've not passed from death to life then you abide in death. Life or death is not a separate entity which can be divided from the being whch posseses it as you attempt to prove in your analogy.

Also,you'll see in the verse that follows,that what I've stated is no mere philosophical jargon. Note the words,'them' and 'they'. No disconnect between the person and the Life they posess.

John 10:28 And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand.

And finally,to sum it all up;

Praise be to our Great God and Savior,

Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the world began: But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Tim.1:9,10

 2012/5/22 10:49Profile

 Re: Savannah

A question. Can somebody be elect of God and not have a life to demonstrate it? If one says God chooses from all eternity but no life testifies to that choice then are they truly born again? Are they really elect?

If memory serves I believe this is what Arminous and Edwards were standing against in their day. There were those who said they were chosen by God. But there was no change of heart to reflect that change.

Just my thoughts.


 2012/5/22 11:04

Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


hi,many times i have typed this and told this; when one goes to an altar to make a dicision for Christ , he is going to make a decision to die ... altars are places of sacrifice.repentance is when you put your life to death and give the reigns to Jesus. gal:2 20 expplains this well. the problem we have is not eternal security but false security. with Jesus in charge of your life,you are secure.i have seen drastic changes in hundreds of people as the Holy Spirit takes over and begins the sanctification process...jimp

 2012/5/22 11:37Profile

Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1033


Not to offend anyone I will use a supernatural analogy.

When the martyr Jim Elliot said: " He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can never lose."

He is using the same language Jesus used comparing the temporal with the eternal.
He is basically saying that we can not keep our life here on earth because the days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.but if we give this life to God we will gain eternal life which will last forever and ever and ever.

Jesus used the same language when He said to not lay treasures on earth where moth eat and rust corrupt but rather lay treasures in heaven where it will last forever.
In the words of Peter: " an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you"

The case here that Jesus, the Apostles,or Jim Elliot are making is "Not" that eternal life can not be lost even if we are unfaithful but rather that eternal life compared to a temporal life is the inheritance of those who choose to trade this life for it.

Let me word it another way.
When Jim Elliot said:
" He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can never lose."

He is not saying that eternal life can not be lost by someone who will not remain faithful to the end. That is not at all what he is refering to.
He is rather saying that those who choose to trade this life that can easily be lost for one that can not be lost because of its very nature being eternal are not fools.

In other words, he, Jesus, and the Apostles are not discussing the unconditional eternal security of the believers but rather comparing two things that are vastly different in their nature and how fool it would be to hold onto the one with the temporal nature at the risk of loosing the one with the eternal nature.

Lord, give us wisdom.
God bless.


 2012/5/22 11:38Profile

Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 531
America's Heartand


Old Joe asked

So Solomon and Bearmaster, do you have everlasting life or not?


1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

Simple enough isn't it? IF we walk in the light.

@ Savannah - wow. How very sad. You make harsh statements against me largely because you did not understand the analogy. In fact by your statement it appears you misread and misunderstand the simple analogy by 180 degrees.

Calvinism, as it has become known, is a system that has key portions of it discredited with overwhelming landslides of scripture that say otherwise. I used to be ordained in a fellowship that is Calvinist and defended those Calvinistic positions until I honestly had to say I could no longer of good conscience do that.... simply because they were clearly inaccurate. I recognize that not all the points of Calvinism are so. Some points are certainly held by Calvinists and Arminians ... and others alike. However, there are some Calvinist posititions that contradict so many scriptures that it seems to be folly to defend them.

The historical accounts of Calvin simply setting himself up as a rival pope to Rome are just about right. He then started his own "Calvinistic Inquisitions" in his own little "Calvinistic Vatican" with the persecution, jailings, and martyrdom of Christians who would not submit to his particular brand of theology.

In actuality it always stems from the issue of the limited atonement. Calvin rejected the fact that Jesus died for the sins of the world and mankind (although it is crystal clear in scripture that Jesus did) and Calvin rather presented the idea that Jesus only died for a few. He of course said he was one of the few. Spiritual elitism was birthed in it then. Calvin , feeling he was one of the few "chosen" began to believe his understandings were the "enlightened" ones and others were not "elected" by God and therefore there beliefs were invalid. He further then required you to agree with his "enlightened" view or go to jail, be persecuted, or martyred. If you believed Jesus died for the sins of mankind you could be killed around Calvin. Sounds a great deal like Inquisitional Catholicism.

I hear that same 'superiority complex" in so many posts by Calvinistic "believers". It becomes clear that many do not believe anyone is saved that does not agree with their views.

Reread the original post in this thread. It is filled with elitism on Spurgeon's part in the first couple of paragraphs. He calls those who do not agree with his Calvinism , "enemies" that he will, "stuff the guns and turn them on them" , and so forth. He even states that his views are self evidently true and any who would disagree with him are , "simply ridiculous". I had held Spurgeon in high regard in bygone years... owning and reading most everything he has written or had recorded by other writers. However, I must say the esteem is greatly reduced that I had for him. It saddens me to see that happen... it saddens me worse to see that "spiritual elitism" on display in the day I live also.

If a person wishes to maintain a Calvinist view then that is their right to choose that based on their conscience. However, when I get called a "heretic" , as I have, because I believe ,"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, Who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. " it reveals the heart of the matter to me. 1 Tim 2;3-4. If these verses are true then every person that ends up in hell goes there outside the will of God. That is the crux of the difference. It can't be both ways... does God want them saved as stated in 1 Timothy... or not. If 1 Tim. 3 is true then the will of God is NOT done in every single one of those cases a person enters an eternal hell.

edited for clarity

 2012/5/22 11:55Profile

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