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Trekker
Member



Joined: 2011/7/29
Posts: 683
northern USA

 Re:

QUOTE: ""He that killeth with the sword must be killed with a sword." IF this must be done, the Christian cannot be above the duty because he thinks he will get his hands dirty. His hands are already dirty when he participates in the freedoms purchased by the blood of another. Because you don't fire the gun it doesn't make you any less culpable in war if you live off the spoils."==OLDJOE



AMEN! A THOUSAND TIMES AMEN. Joe you have some real wisdom here. I sure would be proud to know you.

 2012/4/27 0:19Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Trekker, before you read the commentaries, what did the Holy Spirit tell you? What do you think about Christians from two countries being in the armies of their respective countries going to war with against other?

Situational ethics is a slippery slope. Where does your self-justification for violence and war and vengeance end? With your view there are many NT scriptures that no longer mean anything. Would you like me to list them? Better to walk as He walked. How did He walk? Was He a lamb led to the slaughter? Are we? Did Paul think we were?

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Live in fear or trust God. Stop the lip service and start believing with your whole heart.

Pilgrim

 2012/4/27 1:05Profile
Trekker
Member



Joined: 2011/7/29
Posts: 683
northern USA

 Re:

PILGRIM777,

I have a peace in my heart about people belonging to military service, in answer to your question about what the Holy Spirit is telling me. Does that mean i have a peace about war? No one ever has peace about war, cuz war is ALWAYS ugly and always a last resort.

As to many scriptures supposedly being negated by my position...i disagree. You really havent provided any proof of that, and as i said earlier the Sermon on the Mount was referring to how individuals should treat individuals, not how the government should.

And you have completely ignored what i wrote in my previous post Pilgrim. You have simply danced around it, ignoring LUKE 3: 14 and what i said there. Ignore that verse and you are ignoring Jesus. He allowed for wages for soldiers so it follows that He allows for soldiers. What do soldiers do? Soldiers wage war against enemies of the state, soldiers kill.

 2012/4/27 5:01Profile









 Re:

Well said Trekker.

Police do a similar job on a local scale. Tactical units do it on a higher scale. It often takes killing to make or keep peace. Blessed are the peacemakers...

I think you would really enjoy "War and Grace" by Don Stephens. Below is just one snippet of the account of one of Hitler's men soundly saved before his execution. Though there is much sorrow in war, there is MUCH grace as well!!

http://www.givengain.com/cgi-bin/giga.cgi?cmd=cause_dir_news_item&cause_id=1507&news_id=109755&cat_id=637


"That left ten men to die by the rope. At 01.00 Ribbentrop was called for first. Before he walked to the gallows, he told Gerecke that he put all his trust in Christ. Ribbentrop was then marched to the first of three scaffolds. He climbed the thirteen steps to the trapdoor. The impassive soldiers and press representatives looked on. A guard tied his legs. An American officer asked for his last words. Ribbentrop responded: ‘I place all my confidence in the Lamb who made atonement for my sins. May God have mercy on my soul.’ Then he turned to Gerecke and said, ‘I’ll see you again.’ The black hood was pulled over his face. The thirteen-coiled noose was put around his neck – and he dropped through the trap door."

Pilgrim
Ribbentrop was a brother, but also needed to die for his sin. Nevertheless, when I die for my sin, I will see him again!!

OJ

 2012/4/27 9:23
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Trekker,

Regarding Luke 3:14, no problem.

"Do violence to no man", evidently means something different to you than it does to me.

Now, I will start another thread about War and the Christian's Attitude To It, so that we can give back this thread to the ones that want to talk about the original OP.

I am not going to get into the area of whether someone is a brother or not. I just want to look at the Christian perspective to war according to the NT. Not the OT, Joe.

Pilgrim

 2012/4/27 9:31Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I just want to look at the Christian perspective to war according to the NT. Not the OT, Joe.



Do you do the same (discard the OT) when you look at the Christian perspective of creation? If so, you are going to miss out on most of the truth.

It's ONE book, and you need the whole thing if you want the whole truth.

OJ

 2012/4/27 10:03
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

I will not pick up the sword. I don't remember Jesus picking up the sword. In fact, I remember reading about Him not responding to those who were killing Him, besides praying for them and asking Father to forgive them, for they know not what they do...

When He comes back, I know that He will have a two-edged sword, but something about it makes me think that it will not be made out of steal.


_________________
Christiaan

 2012/4/27 11:57Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Joe, I will actually share some OT scriptures on War.

But, we need to take a look at the New Covenant and the New Man and Jesus Christ.

I can take the OT and justify about anything. Anyway, I think it will be a good study. I don't want it to be a litmus test of who is a brother or who is not. You will see that the view of war has changed through the centuries with the Church.

Many of early church fathers indicated that Christians should not participate in war and there is no record of Christians participating in military prior to 174 A.D. Until 323 A.D. almost all Christian literature repudiates involvement in military service and war. Some military service was allowed for non-combative roles. And I thought this was interesting that some soldiers were excluded from participation in the Lord's Supper until they had confessed of their sin of shedding blood.

But we also see some acceptance of involvement in war as Tertullian (197 A.D.) reported many Christians in the Roman army and Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.) indicated a soldier should "abide in that calling wherein he was called" (I Cor. 7:24).

I abided in my calling when I was in the military. I was saved in the military but then respectfully refused to carry a gun. I did not know what would happen when I refused but felt led in this way. Rather than punish me, my commanding officer made me his personal chauffeur. I trusted God and He protected me. on the other hand, another soldier I led to the Lord, had the conviction shortly after he was saved to leave the military on conscientious objector grounds. I had no problem with this at all. I felt led to finish my tour. I thought it was a great mission field and had the grace to stay. My friend John, felt he had to leave. I know there is great liberty in the Lord and we each have our relationship with Him.

My struggle is whether there this great liberty in the Lord that includes carrying arms and killing others (who may even be born-again Christians).

Continuiing on, after Constantine (323 A.D.) objection to involvement in war declined. Ambrose (339-397) said that "one who does not defend another from injury is as much at fault as the perpetrator." Augustine(354-430) said "A war can be just when appointed by God, because it repulses wanton attack and seeks restoration of peace".

And then we have Thomas Aquinas (1224-1274) stipulating that there are 3 criteria for just war: 1) waged by legitimate governmental authority, 2) against an enemy who deserves punishment for wrongdoing and 3) with the motivation that good should prevail and evil be removed.

So, we will begin with the history of the church. There have always been two sides and it is an interesting study. In the end, a believer has to come to his own conviction and I understand this. But, there is nothing wrong with sharing what you believe as you see it from scriptures. I look forward to seeing what your view from the scriptures is. I hope it is a peaceful and reasonable discussion that causes both sides to reflect.

I look forward to the conversation.

Pilgrim

 2012/4/27 12:48Profile









 Re:

The Pld Testament is about the old covenant. It has types and shadows and principles pointing to the new, but represents NATURAL shadows that were fulfilled in SPIRITUAL realities/fulfillments in the new. Murdering others is looking at scriptures through natural eyes. You need the Spirit to discern the Word of God (I Corinthians 2:14).
The things that happened to Israel were given to us as types, shadows and examples (analagies) for our benefit (I Corinthians 10:6). So, they warred against physical enemies and were called to kill them all off completely (as an OT guy, I'm sure you know the stories of Agag, Saul, Phineas, etc.), but that was types and shadows of the war New Covenant believers filled with the Holy Spirit are to fight.
Now, we are to understand "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war as the flesh does, for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty in the pulling down of strongholds, for we war not against flesh and blood, but principalities, powers of darkness and wickedness in high places" (I Corinthians 10:3-4). If you don't realize that now, you'll be trying to "call down fire from heaven to destroy men" like the sons of thunder who Jesus rebuked. Jesus said, " you don't know what spirit you are of!" (Luke 9:55).
Go read Hebrews 11. Did those in the hall of faith fight or surrender to the Lord & severe persecution (into death) in humility, faith, & fearlessness? You are thinking through eyes of scripture BEFORE Christ came and the Holy Spirit was poured out and available to lead, guide, and direct believers into all truth! I really think You should fast, pray, ask the Lord to fill you with the Holy Spirit and believe He will cause "He is a rewarded of those that diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6).
I mean you don't look
At all the OT like that do you? Do you have a harem of wives and concubines like David? Do you sacrifice animals on the altar in Jerusalem? Have you stoned anyone lately (physically)? Do you refuse to ever eat pork or shellfish? No. Those are types and shadows. God lead Israel in a physical desert to test them. He leads us through Spiritual ones. God had them refrain from unclean physical meat, we are to refrain from unclean spiritual food (wordly tv, music, etc). God had them sacrifice lambs and get atonement from a yearly high priest entering the Holy of Holies. Now the Lamb of God was slain once for all for us and the veil is rent for us to go into the Holy of Holies (His presence) whenever. He had Israel kill off its physical enemies with physical swords. We are to slay the enemies of our spiritual souls with the sword of the spirit, which is the Word of God (Ephesians 6). Think/pray about it. Pray for the gift of the Holy Spirit. He will lead you into all truth!! Bless you my friend!

Ps. Just a misnomer, I have a wife, 5 kids, & have been in probably 200 fights before salvation. I have fought on the street, in bars, in the ring, etc. I used to be a tough guy, violent, have scars from tire tools to the head, brass knuckles to my ear, etc. I'm not anti-violent cause I'm "scared". I know many military types assume that. I have bullets stored for the future for elk, deer, etc bro, not people! God gives you love to surrender to the cross for His Glory. Until we understand this, we have not embraced the cross He said we must embrace and deny ourselves if we are to even be His disciple. That's real. Look it up in Jesus' words and pray God reveal truth to you on the subject!! Never reach a people for Christ when you are killing them.

 2012/4/27 13:18









 Re:

OK Pilgrim, and I appreciate your stance and the reasons for it. Don't forget that honourable men died to allow you to make that stance. Had they not done so you could just as well been goose-stepping as objecting for conscience sake.

Numbers 32:6   And Moses said unto the children of Gad and to the children of Reuben, Shall your brethren go to war, and shall ye sit here?

No work that needs to be done either to preserve or restore civil order is beneath the Christian. Up to and including the administration of the death penalty. Normally objectors to war are in opposition to the death penalty as well, so our difference will actually lie in that area.

BTW if in war I shot another believer and he shot me at the same time, we would meet shortly thereafter and rejoice that each were delivered from this place to the next. The Christian doesn't lose by dying, he wins! HOWEVER the unbeliever when faced with his own mortality must decide as RIbbentrop and several others did whether they want to continue in that state or be saved.


OJ

 2012/4/27 16:04





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