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ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Frank,

Quote:

I would have to agree with you brother. I do believe that Chris believes his own reasoning with all of his heart. And so therefore I can genuinly agree to disagree with him. To be Spirit led is to be Spirit led. In these matters mens opinions will not be changed by other men, only by revelation. Its interesting that in Jimmy's thread about identity, lots of the subjects that are being touched on in this thread would apply to that thread.



Thanks. I agree that we have all sincerely arrived to our opinion and reasoning. In my case, it has come only after immense prayer and study of God's Word. I am certain that we can all sincerely say the same thing...even if we arrive to a different set of conclusions about such matters.

The differences of opinion in this matter are just that -- differences of opinion derived by flawed men (all of us) who are sincerely seeking and longing for God who is perfect in every way. Your opinion does not make you any less spiritually-minded than mine. The opposite is also true. We are seeking God's heart on this matter and have just not arrived to the same conclusion.

This is true of many different discussions here on SermonIndex. For every much-debated doctrine, there are individuals on all sides who are sincerely seeking the Lord for truth on the matter. Consequently, I think that most of the people who frequent the resources found on SermonIndex are all members of the Body of Christ who are seeking the Lord above all else.

Quote:

And as interesting as all that is, I still wonder if those who do choose to vote( and I agree that it is not sinful unless one is violating ones concience) can vote, in good concience, for a man who utterly denies the trinity and the very core of everything we are as Christians. I am the more interested in the logic of those who have in the past stated that we need a Christian or more Christians in the Whitehouse.



In this case, I don't know anyone who concluded beyond doubt that any particular candidate was a Christian. During the 2004 election and onward, I stated in some of the various political debate threads on SermonIndex that I had no idea whether or not President Bush was a believer. I did caution individuals from making a claim either way (either "yes he is" or "no he isn't"). This came across as if I were "defending" the President. That just wasn't the case.

In regard to Governor Romney: I don't know if I will vote for him or not. However, it is clear that Americans are not selecting a pastor but a president. Thus, no one is embracing ANY aspect of the cult to which Romney belongs any more than those who supported Obama may have been embracing the Liberation Theology cult to which he belonged. To many people -- including Christians -- the election is nothing more than deciding which person running would be the better chief executive for the next four year term.

I don't know ANY believer here or elsewhere who would argue that Mormonism is just a "sect of Christianity." Most believers would say the same about Roman Catholicism, Liberation Theology or any other number of cults. When a workplace has to select a project manager, the employees don't consider the person's religious faith. The hiring of such an individual doesn't mean an endorsement of religion either. It is just a decision about which person is best for the job.

The office of the President of the United States is a SECULAR job. I do think that it is possible for a believer to operate in such a capacity (although it is highly unlikely). Similarly, I think that it is possible for a believer to serve in other "secular" capacities...at work, school, and elsewhere. And, ultimately, we can have faith that God is overseeing all of human history from His absolute omniscience and omnipotence.

Whether we vote or not, God knows the end from the beginning. OF course, He knows this of each one of us. That doesn't mean that I will play with matches, walk carelessly in the street or lay down on train tracks just because God is aware of my own end. Chances are if I walk in front of a train or truck going 80 mph, the end of my life is being written by my own actions. Thus, if I feel the liberty to vote -- even for another non-Christian candidate -- I will do so only with a clear conscience.

A few years ago, my dad made a comment that I thought was telling. He said that even if a real Christian were running for President, there will always be someone to rise up and point the finger at him and claim that he isn't really a Christian. They will scrutinize and point out every flaw and some will go on and on about how he isn't really a Christian.

I don't know the eternal condition of any person. God hasn't shared such knowledge with me...even if the fruit of some may seem clear. In this case, we have two primary candidates who were members of some cults where the cult tries to invoke the Name of Christ on their religion and heresies. Is it possible to select one on the basis of simple persuasion about who we think would be better for this country of our temporary residence?

Like BrotherTom says, we may NEVER have had a real Christian in the White House since the Civil War. Although I can't pretend to know if this is true, I think that the point is clear. Americans aren't voting for a religious leader. They aren't voting for a pastor. They aren't selecting an apostle. They aren't selecting a savior. They are simply deciding between a couple of primary candidates in regard to who would be a better fit for the direction of this country over the next four year term of office.

Ultimately, the focus isn't on any man. They are ALL flawed. In this case, they both belong to cults and are likely just another of the majority of this world that doesn't truly know our Lord. Does that mean that it is a "compromise" to decide that one one of them would be better than the other? I don't think so.

The focus of real believers will ALWAYS be on Christ Jesus. We shouldn't assume that they would be led astray over something so superficial as an election of a flawed man. Many will maintain their faith and integrity in Christ even if they vote because of issues that they feel are important for their families, neighbors and, of course, their brothers and sisters in Christ.

The Lord bless you, dear brother. May the Lord guide each of us in this and welcome our brethren -- including those with which we disagree on these matter -- with the love of Christ.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/4/22 23:02Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:


KingJimmy - just a curiosity question: are you former military by chance?



No. I'm not. My younger brother served for a while though. I'm against war.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/4/22 23:03Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi HezWelling,

I apologize if I was reading too much into your post. I just couldn't understand what you were saying.

All of what you said about the election season will probably end up being true. However, those things will not have a place in my heart. My heart belongs to Christ and will not be distracted by such matters. It may take effort sometimes, but the same is said about all of the "affairs of this life" -- like my family, my job, finances, etc...

Still, I may end up voting on November 6th. I don't know right now. I am still in prayer over this and everything else in this life. I do have some strong opinions over what direction I think that a president should go or how we may not be going in that direction now. However, this is of little importance in comparison to knowing our Savior.

At the end of the day, I am much more focused upon spending time alone with the Lord. I want to be alone in my own closet away from the thoughts and concerns of this life and present myself to the Lord with clean hands and a pure heart.

I suspect that this is true of everyone who has met our Lord. It is a desire to be alone with God so intimately that the world around us and the thoughts of this life just fades away.

It reminds of an old song that meant a lot to me when I first met Him (and continues to mean a lot to me now):

JESUS DRAW ME CLOSE
by Rick Founds
http://tinyurl.com/jesusdrawmeclose

Jesus, draw me close
Closer, Lord, to You.
Let the world around me fade away.

Jesus, draw me close;
Closer, Lord, to You.
For I desire to worship and obey.

Jesus, draw me close
Closer, Lord, to You.
Let the world around me fade away.

Jesus, draw me close;
Closer, Lord, to You.
For I desire to worship and obey.

http://tinyurl.com/jesusdrawmeclose

I love you in all truth, dear brother Neil.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/4/22 23:13Profile









 Re:

Neil,
What you speak is true. The Lord has spoken the same thing to me and many others I am in close fellowship with. The Lord also showed it to men like Leonard Ravenhill, Art Katz, David Wilkerson, Carter Conlon, etc. "Something" is coming. The Lord has decreed it to His watchmen and compelled them to cry out to prepare for battle (spiritually). I thought it was coming a few years ago, as strong as the Lord put it in my heart. So did so many others. Then, as time went by, many began to doubt it. I even prayed, "Lord, did I mis-hear you? Did you relent from judgements you decreed were coming?" You want to know what the Spirit softly spoke into my spirit? "It's just the calm before the storm".
His ways are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts. His timeline is not our timeline. To the Lord, a thousand years is as a day. This is a forum thread. Frankly, I believe from reading posts there are all kinds "on here" at times. Some who are "Christian in name only", some who are "extremely fruity" & think all kinds of things are God which aren't, some cessationists who think God's Spirit doesn't speak at all anymore and prophets don't exist anymore do ONLY the written Word is valid at all, & some who think that anything/everything is God speaking through the names of candy bars and through cloud shapes. I also believe there are young, growing believers & many true brethren who have been through many true spiritual battles and who's eyes are fixed on Christ & the Gospel.
I know a few brethren who post on here in real life and they know me through New Testament Body Fellowship. We all have different stories of how God came to each of us (independently not through a man, but by God's Soveriegnty) & warned us to get ready for what's coming. Not something we read on a blog or heard preached in a church building, but God came to each of us & moved us in similar fashion with a similar warning -"Get Ready, something Big is coming. Judgement is at the door".
It's nothing voting for a political stance-changing, Mormon presidential candidate is going to change. I have advice for the ones expending energy in the political process: expend that energy getting truly intimate with Christ, preparing for the harvest, & being about the Father's business. All else is gonna burn up. I say this with love, grace, & sobriety on my heart. Prepare your hearts now for the Lord's work daily in your life.
If your allegiance is to the state, a denomination, the institutional Church Religion being spoon fed to the masses every Sunday in buildings called churches, the constitution & democratic process, etc., etc. it will be shown for what it really is - wood, hay, & stubble. It's all gonna burn and be shown for what it is. Draw close to Christ in the secret place. Abide in Him & His Word. Do the works and will of the Father. Stay focused on the kingdom and connected to the vine. Nothing else really matters. The refiner's fire coming will test and try every mans work. Don't be about anything but taking up your cross, denying your self, forsaking your life, putting all your trust in Christ alone, & follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. Amen. Praise be to the Lamb of God that was slain to receive glory and honor and praise!!

 2012/4/22 23:31
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

To be brief: The sacred vs. secular divide that a non-participation point of view espouses ultimately overlooks the fact that there is no such thing. Jesus Christ is the head of all of creation. All authority has been given to him on heaven and earth. Jesus Christ is Lord of all.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/4/22 23:49Profile









 Re:

If that's what/all you took out of what I said, I either poorly communicated it, or you just didn't hear me.

 2012/4/23 0:25









 my dear Jeff

Quote:
Draw close to Christ in the secret place. Abide in Him & His Word. Do the works and will of the Father. Stay focused on the kingdom and connected to the vine. Nothing else really matters. The refiner's fire coming will test and try every mans work. Don't be about anything but taking up your cross, denying your self, forsaking your life, putting all your trust in Christ alone, & follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. Amen. Praise be to the Lamb of God that was slain to receive glory and honor and praise!!



only God the Holy Spirit could impell you to write that, to testify as such, being Truth it encourages me in the same way that Paul mused in Phillipians,

"which is better"?

for two, three hours, i know it is meant to feel as if one's bones are burning, i feel paralyzed.

i heard that ole Len told Michael Brown that he believes that one man with the Power and the Spirit of the Holy Ghost on him, on his knees, in his prayer closet, in one hour could change the world.

one hour, like Moses, who is that man?

 2012/4/23 0:28
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: my dear Jeff

William Wilberforce changed the world. The grace of God upon his life resulted in the death of the institution of the slave trade. In what he did, he changed more lives than Leonard Ravenhill ever did or will. And let's not even talk about you guys who are nothing more than glorified bloggers. In a short period of time Wilberforce changed the British empire and shook the world. And what was he? A Christian politician.

Let's not be psuedo spiritual.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/4/23 5:44Profile









 oh Jimmy...why?

why, why, why?

Quote:
he changed more lives than Leonard Ravenhill ever did or will. And let's not even talk about you guys who are nothing more than glorified bloggers.



Jimmy, if i had played the 'game' in the entertainment industry and had millions, just on that alone, i;d contact you today, set up a financial support mechanism, so you could quit your day job, and Focus on what your heart desires, and that is to preach and teach the Gospel and the Blood that cleanses men and women from all sin. Jesus.

but i never 'played' their game, so i don't and for that i am sorry. Coz it would be my joy, to bless YOU in such a way, fore i know your zeal for the Word of God, and the God of the Word.

should i have to tell you what the Lord laid on my heart, up here in the rural Midwest?...i will(just so in the event, you wish to ascend a prayer to the Throne for such)..there's a vacant storefront,in my nearest town of 700 souls, owned by a friend secular, who i am going to BEG (oh yeh) to let me use for tues and thursday night prayer meetings, then i have to BEG, one united methodist pastor, and one united pentecostal pastor (oneness!) to join with me, in the most humble of ministries, intercessory prayer. Why THESE two pastors?......well, because in this town, THOSE are the two churches.

i could TRY it alone, but thats not wise.

in fact, in a seventy mile radius, around here, the churches are mainly, united methodist, evan lutheran, the romans, and thats IT!

its 'dry wood'...but that isnt bad, as 'dry wood' burns better. But brother Jimmy, personally, i am dealing with a broken body, but thats okay too, coz its not my strength, its Jesus' in me.

Jimmy, just let me reason with you, there is no such thing as a "christian politician" in America 2012, and if a man does confer on himself this title, i would be very very wary, because these days, you either serve caesar or you serve God, you can't have it both ways. Jesus TOLD us that.

Wilberforce...great! but have you ever studied the ministry of Rev John Rankin?

i did not write to slam you personally, but

Quote:
Let's not be psuedo spiritual.



was uncalled for, i pray you walk that back, and if i ever said anything un Christlike to you, i beg YOUR forgiveness.

we're playing for the same team, The Blood Boughts...come on, please, for Jesus' sake, neil

 2012/4/23 7:36









 Re: oh Jimmy...why?

Question: So what great "world-changing" thing is a Mormon who has changed every position he has had over the last decade (supposedly) going to do? See, there is a difference in being led by the Spirit and the flesh. William Wilberforce was a man changed by God's grace and who God used to change slavery. Romney is a Mormon. A follower of a cult that damns millions to hell and denies the Word of God. On top of that, he has chameleonized every position he has ever had on every subject. When he answers a question, it is in Slick Willy (Bill Clinton) fashion (just like Barack Obama). I'm not saying it is by nature "ungodly" to vote. I'm saying that God gives us discernment when we ask for it and walk with Him, so don't act like voting is akin to worship or not voting is condemned by God. Especially when the choices are as they are this time.

Did the Spirit of God speak to you to vote this time?
Don't just gloss over this and not answer this question please. Did He? Or did all that patriotic, constitution is inspired, nationalistic PRIDE that we have drilled in (in our "churches" no less) lead our way of thinking here?

The "state church" buildings in China would agree with your stance on participating in (& obeying in all facets of) govt. to the degree they are allowed (less than us no doubt). They are dead forms of religious shells which leave out parts of scripture so as not to draw fire from the govt (501c3 tax exempt churches will be faced the with the same type decisions VERY SOON). The Underground church where the Spirit of God is moving would no waste time on any of that mess. They will not quit meeting, they will not quit reading the whole of scripture, and they will not "get tied down in the civil affairs of this world". They don't have time for it. They know understand they are to be about their Father's business and an eternal kingdom.

Again, have you prayed and the Spirit of the Lord told you to definitely vote in this particular election. Don't compare Romney or Obama to Wilburforce unless you have some basis for such a discussion. Ian Paisley and others changed the world in their position BECAUSE GOD CALLED THEM TO THAT PLACE FOR THAT TIME (like Ester). So which candidate has God called and raised up for you to vote for this election: the Marxist socialist Liberal or the Mormon cult-member?

 2012/4/23 9:43





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