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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK



So you seem to be saying that when Jesus spoke to His disciples (alone in the upper room) about the importance of abiding in Him (the vine), it only applied to them as Jews, but not to any believing gentiles.
So you have two churches, one Jewish and one Gentile! Seems to go against all teaching of scripture I think. There is ONE church and ONE body, not two.

Therefore what Jesus said to His disciples (and not to the general Jewish nation) about abiding I take as applying to me. I don't know of one credible bible teacher that would say John 15 does not apply to us today, no matter if they are reformed or otherwise.

I am just reading it as it says and not taking any doctrinal position on it.


 2012/4/13 7:50Profile

 Re: God saves faithful children; those who rebel are under His wrath.

"That is simply profound (and profoundly simple). If God is love, why doesn't He just predestine, elect and save all men? Wouldn't that be the compassionate and loving thing to do since it is His power anyway that saves and there is nothing we can do?

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

But why doesn't this seem to happen?

Possibly, because man has a part to play?


AMEN Pilgrim. This is Jude's point concerning the "angels that left their former estate.", Why were they not saved? They were the perfect sons, without sin before the rebellion in Heaven, until it was found in Lucifer.

They too "had something to do"; IE...remain faithful to Yahweh..[ Father, Son and Holy Spirit ], and it is exactly the same with the born again men on Earth. We must REMAIN faithful, endure to the end, abiding in Him. The same shall be saved.

" You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

 2012/4/13 7:58

Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


Well, as you can see from this thread, there are some doctrines/dogmas that are a direct attack upon the character and nature of God, though they sound good on the surface.

Regarding the branches in John 15:

Gentiles were grafted in and partake of the root and the vine along with the Jews.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

John 15 is a spiritual lesson in abiding in Jesus Christ and all Christians (Jew or Gentile) who don't abide in the Vine (only branches can abide in a Vine), will be cast forth. This applies to all Christians where (by the way)there is neither Jew nor Gentile anymore because we are all "In Christ".

Gary, your belief seems to be a very fringe belief. Like HeyDave, I have heard people say this book of Scripture or that chapter of Scripture is only for the Jews, but this is the first time I have heard it about John 15. Do you also believe only Jews are indwelt by the Spirit of God?


 2012/4/13 8:55Profile


I mean the bible says God is Love and if He elects some to eternal life then why not all because if Jesus died for some then why not all because all have sinned and can’t save themselves and we know that a loving God does not want any to go to hell and if he has the power to save some then why does he not have the power to save all if man has nothing at all to do with salvation.

This is a mystery indeed. In order to answer this we have to leave the main stream Christianity that we all know and cherish and venture into the unknown.

How does God send someone to the lake of fire if they have never heard of Jesus? How does God justify His actions seeing that He is Righteous beyond measure? Genesis 18:25 Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

The first Adam was tainted with sin and all men, both you and I are condemned because of one man's sin. Why doesn't that work with the Second Adam? Did He not represent man in a sinless body to die on the cross for all men and shed His blood for everyone ONCE FOR ALL?

Why call Him the Second Adam if the results are not the same? In Adam shall all die, in Christ shall all be made alive. Is the All in Christ any less than the All in Adam?

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Verse 12, and the BOOKS were opened, and ANOTHER book was opened which is verse 27, the lamb's book of life.

There is more than just one book. I wonder, could it be that those who never heard about Jesus were judged according to their works how they lived and died on planet earth? Will the Judge of all the earth do right?

What about children that have been wronged, they never heard of Jesus, but still, they were wronged and then killed? How would the Judge of all the earth judge that situation?

How does the Judge of all the earth send the victim and the perpetrator to the lake of fire?

God could ask, "Do you know Jesus my Son". The child would reply, "Who is He Sir, I never heard of Him before."

God's reply, "Off to the lake of fire and be damned for all of eternity you cursed".

Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?

 2012/4/13 10:15


Gary, your belief seems to be a very fringe belief. Like HeyDave, I have heard people say this book of Scripture or that chapter of Scripture is only for the Jews,

Pilgrim, the gospel, up until Cornelius was a Jewish gospel. The Gentiles were not even thought of in the minds of the Apostles until Peter was shocked by God's sheet coming down from heaven filled with disgusting creatures that were forbidden by Jews to have communion with (to eat that is).

Some time had to have passed before Cornelius the first gentile to be introduced to the gospel. We tend to look at chapters as the next day. When we look at the Old Testament, those books were written over a period of about two thousand years, so we need to stretch our imagination to conclude that these books were not written right after the other like a sequel to a novel.

It was necessary to establish the gospel and get people established. Jesus said to make disciples. On the day of Pentecost five thousand believed.

That is a lot of people to work with and to establish in the faith. Networks were created, deacons were born, the Apostles would choose out certain men to disciple. A great supply program was developed, a treasury was formed from all the revenues that were coming in from donations, this was a massive undertaking and a lot of work, but it was a joyous work and everyone was of one mind and one accord. Philip and Steven just didn't pop up out of the blue and started a ministry they were trained by the Apostles, they had to be proven as good workmen who knew how to rightly divide the word. Some years had passed before Peter was able to get away so to speak, to venture out into deeper waters of the gospel. Up until this time everyone knew that this was a Jewish gospel.

If you notice when Philip went down to Samaria to preach the gospel and they received it, Peter and John didn't flinch to go down there to lay hands on them so they too can receive the Holy Spirit. They knew Samaritans were half breeds of Israel. But when it came time for the Gentiles to hear, they were astonished that the Holy Ghost came upon them. No one fully understood what Jesus did on that cross, sadly we still don't.

God has always worked in piecemeal. He works behind the scenes slowly, secretly, and when the day comes for it to manifest into our lives, it's instant. When Jesus came on the scene as a baby, it was time for Him to manifest from all the work that the Father had done years and years before in establishing the word in the earth for Christ to come. He could have come sooner, but because of the rebellious house of Israel God stalled it through silence for a certain amount of time. Once that time was up, Christ came.

Even when we pray, He goes to work behind the scenes and we wonder if He even heard us, but the wait of faith will either make us or ruin us. If we endure it, we receive the petition.

Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

 2012/4/13 10:58

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1262


Thanks Pilgrim, HeyDave, and many others for your posts!

This brings me to another point. Early this morning I asked my wife how important was faith in the whole scope of salvation. She said that it was very important because we have to believe in order to be saved. I asked her how important was grace and then I said to her that I believe these two were most important to God’s great salvation.

I then asked her if God had the power to save everybody and she said yes and so I asked her then why doesn’t He and she replied because man is given a choice to believe. Then I said let’s take our two children whom we dearly love and let’s say they were both about to fall off a cliff to their death and you had the power to save them both but one didn’t want to be saved what would you do. Would you save one of them but not the other because one didn’t want to be saved. Then I said to her, now be honest in that you have the power to save both but one does not want to be, so what would you do, and she said I would save both anyway. I believe I know why because of her love for both.

This brings me to another point that most of us could say there was a time we probably didn’t want to accept Jesus as the Lord and savior of our life but yet God still sought after us because of His great love for us. He is the one who chose us and not us choosing Him. He is the one who loved us first before we loved Him. He is the one who drew us and I don’t believe for one minute that God would let one of His die and go to hell because of their being a time in life when they didn’t want to be saved because of man being in darkness and being blind to the good news of salvation. His light and truth must penetrate that darkness in order for us to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

This leads to another point for now in that man has been given some responsibility in this whole relationship with God and still must exercise His will in a loving relationship with God. The fact that man can’t save himself and many are blind to the truth of God’s loving salvation does not stop God from doing everything that he can up to the point of almost violating man’s will that has been given to him. This leads me to believe that if man is saved then it is due to the great loving grace and mercy of God and if man is not saved it is because he has rejected God’s only way of salvation to the point of God almost violating man’s will that was given to Him by a loving God who gave this to him so they could have a responsible relationship together in order to have a mutual love. This is the only way for God to not have us be like a puppet on a string and in the end God is “just” in doing everything that he does because He has given man a responsibility in that He created him in his own image and likeness.

Finally there will be no one in hell that God didn’t do everything in His power to try and save them. I do not believe that God has the power to save everyone, but want, because He just decided that some wasn’t worth saving. I believe the greatest reward for Jesus’ suffering is to try and get everybody saved by the power and leading of the Holy Spirit if at all possible.

Blessings…from brother rbanks

 2012/4/13 11:29Profile

 The House of God for all

Approved: I must disagree with you somewhat, though I can sympathize with your idea. The Gospel given by Jesus was neither a Jewish Gospel, nor a Gentile one. It was the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

To say otherwise is to give credence that ALL of HIS WORDS were only unto the Jews, and was simply dispensed by them in the early church there. They are not the owners of it;, they are for all of those in the Kingdom; His Kingdom. This Kingdom Gospel happened to be first GIVEN unto the Hebrew Nation at Jerusalem, but it was not a Jewish Gospel.

Peter, to all believers wrote:

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

By the way, this is the error that many Messianic groups have adapted, with the keeping of feasts, the wearing of the robes and holy attire, and religiously keeping the Sabbath days. Paul called them Judaizers.

It's roots were from the idea that in the beginning it was a Jewish gospel, and that way became the elite way, for the Hebrew. As Pilgrim noted; there is neither Jew or Gentile in Christ; we are one Nation, one people, whatever our roots or bloodline, and it has always been so.


 2012/4/13 11:40

 Approved - Christ was the LAST ADAM.

Why call Him the Second Adam?

You made a mistake - Christ was the LAST ADAM.

 2012/4/13 11:48

Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211

 The Bottom Line - Salvation Not a Commodity

The salvation that Jesus offers is not a THING which a person can possess. That means the phrase "got saved" (unbiblical term) as it is widely used today is invalid. It is not an idea, concept, or a philosophy. It does not involve a prescribed methodology, it is not a theological principle, and there are not a certain number of steps to follow in order for salvation to operate in one's life.

Salvation is the result of a relationship a person has with Jesus. It is inappropriate to describe salvation in terms of some unchangeable event which a person has no part in. If someone is in an accident and their arm is severed from their body, there is nothing that can change THAT. They are a one armed person from then on, (i.e. that is their status). When a child is born, they become alive--that is the child's status (until it dies). When a person is born again, they too are alive (spiritually). As long as they eat spiritual food, drink spiritual drink and exercise their spiritual man so that he REMAINS ALIVE and gains ascendancy over the old, carnal man, when they reach eternity they will continue in the new life they began with Jesus AND CONTINUED IN. If a person is persuaded that some event or belief he holds gives him irrevocable good standing with God (when actually he still loves the flesh, participates in, and seeks the things of the world); and holding this mistaken belief, that man passes into eternity, the death he lives and operates in when he dies he will still be operating in, in eternity. The death he lives in and operates in while living, will be his status in eternity--he will be separated from God forever, just as he was on earth. If you die separated from God, you will not be rejoined to Him in eternity. The Bible does not teach contrary to this.

The gospel message that encourages people to approach salvation as a commodity or a possession rather than as a result of their relationship with the Father is a damnable heresy, and must be forsaken by everyone who believes in it before they can enter the Kingdom of God. The Bible says that the Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. If a person has a REAL, PROPER relationship with Jesus, they will live in righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit: the Kingdom of God.

We don't window shop for spiritual commodities. Born-again, I'll take one of those, baptism, yep, got that. Filled with the Holy Spirit? That's in my shopping cart, too. Member of the correct denomination? Of course! I am now a full fledged card carrying member of the Church and everything is irrevocable because God does not take away His gifts, therefore I'm in!!! Yeah!!! Isn't God good???



 2012/4/13 11:53Profile


Finally there will be no one in hell that God didn’t do everything in His power to try and save them. I do not believe that God has the power to save everyone, but want, because He just decided that some wasn’t worth saving. I believe the greatest reward for Jesus’ suffering is to try and get everybody saved by the power and leading of the Holy Spirit if at all possible.

You had me up until this last paragraph and then it goes wonky.

What are these words, "Try and save them" and "some wasn't worth saving"?

Is God "trying" to save people?

And does He finally throw up His hands in discouragement that some were not worth saving?

Go back to your first thought. Do you give up on your children because they are not worth saving? What parent does that? If we can do it, are we greater than God's parenting?

 2012/4/13 11:56

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