So far I've had 5 people on this thread demand that I explain certain sundry passages. I'm happy to do so, but please know that I have more important things going on in my life than to spend all day answering every question. So if I dont get to it right away... please cut me a little slack.

To answer your question about the ten virgins and John 15 I will... once again... refer you to 1 John 2:19...

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, gthat it might become plain that they all are not of us."

You can replace the word "continued" with "abided" if you wish.

There's your answer. Plain and simple.

Krispy

I would like to add something this morning to this thread about the security of the believer. Jesus does teach that we are secure in Him. He also warns not to be deceived, not to get slack, and not to turn or fall away from grace.

Although I don’t like the term OSAS because of the deception it can bring to people causing them not to persevere or make their calling and election sure which is what the bible teaches, I also don’t believe one should live in fear of losing their salvation as though there is something that we need to do as of ourselves in order to keep ourselves saved.

I as a Christian know that I have been born of God with a definite experience of the Holy Spirit and have also gone on to make my calling and election sure as the scripture teaches. I also have assurance of salvation and believe that I will always be saved and I strive to live every day to please the Lord and also desire to hear him say one day “well done thou good and faith servant” and at the same time take heed to the warnings in scripture as well as the commission of my Lord.

I am going to step out on a limb here and say that I also believe that a truly born of God person rooted in a relationship with Christ to the point where Jesus wouldn’t be able to say I never knew you because you’ve had a relationship to where the foundation of God standeth sure having this seal that the Lord knows them that are His and whereby this relationship cause one to depart from all iniquity. Jesus says of all that the Father has truly given to me I have lost none. I have this assurance that keeps me humbly depending on the Lord and His grace to always strive to please Him with the joy of the Holy Spirit who enables me to do His will. I am depending on the Lord and His power to keep me saved and to help endure until the end and I have confidence that He will and I praise Him for His promises of Love to us all.

That being said brings me to this point that each one must have this faith in themselves personally and not get it from someone else as someone telling them “OSAS” which is not biblical because saved has a 3 fold meaning and also a person has not reached final salvation until redemption of the purchased possession. We can use all the clichés of they were never saved in the beginning but unless they persevere and make their calling and election sure they could have a false hope that could actually keep them from going on to a real experience of salvation.

Blessings…from brother rbanks

I didn't ask about 1john. U still have not answered me. Explain to me the Lords words. If you do not ABIDE then u are cut out. Abiding means to abide.... Yes we don't know ones heart but we do have Gods word. What happened to the unbelieving Israelites? The did not receive the promise. They no longer believed. Were they not Gods?

_________________
Brian

rbanks and I differ in some aspects of this topic, but we also agree on some things. Let me say that there is a fear among some of you that teaching eternal security might cause some to abuse it and be deceived, think they can live any way they want to and still be considered a Christian.

This is VERY similar to the fear that many have about teaching Christian liberty, or freedom in Christ. Paul even addressed that very fear. Just because some may abuse it it did not keep Paul from teaching us about our freedom and liberty.

And thats the same thing about eternal security, at least in my way of thinking. Just because some people misunderstand it and abuse it doesnt mean that it isnt true. We preach the truth regardless of how it might be misapplied. We dont hide the truth because someone might abuse it.

Thats like saying "ban all cars because some people are going to drive over the speed limit".

Krispy

Brother

I think you have hit the nail right on the head. Total common sense born out of a personal experience of God and Christ. Amen

Krispy,

Faith is the doorway for union with Christ and faith is the vehicle to continue in our union with Christ, unless as the thief, we die right after we are justified by faith.

As Calvinist John Murray explains: "Union with Christ is really the central truth of the whole doctrine of salvation". (Murray, Redemption p. 161).

So, if Murray says this (which I concede is Biblical truth), then how does a Saint maintain Union with Christ?

And this goes back to OSAS. Is salvation an instantaneous act of God that fixes the present position and eternal destiny of the believer or is it a process that depends on man's perseverance (the "P" in TULIP. Perseverance of the Saints)?

When it comes to the "P" in TULIP, lurking behind Calvinism is Arminianism. If Calvinism is true, then one would think that a sinner with Total Depravity, whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world by Unconditional Election, whom Christ has made a Limited Atonement for, and whom God has regenerated by Irresistible Grace, would be saved whether he persevered or not. But by confounding God's perseverance of the believer with the believer's perseverance in the faith, Calvinists have contradicted their entire system of theology.

Let me ask these questions:

1. Are keeping His commandments optional for men that would enter into life?
2. Is there saving faith apart from obedience?
3. Is there valid assurance of election and final salvation apart from deliberate perseverance in the faith?

What do Calvinists have to say about this?

"Endurance in faith is a condition for future salvation. Only those who endure in faith will be saved for eternity".
R.C. Sproul, Grace Unknown

"Neither the members of the church nor the elect can be saved unless they persevere in holiness; and they cannot persevere in holiness without CONTINUAL watchfulness and effor". Charles Hodge, Corintians.

"Holiness in this life is absolutely necessary to salvation, not only as a means to the end, but by a nobler kind of necessity, as part of the end itself". Arthur Pink, Sanctification.

If one did not know better, he would adamantly insist that the above quotes were taken from Arminians like John Wesley, Richard Watson, Robert Shank or Guy Duty. But they are Calvinist quotes which show they have exactly the same sentiments on perseverance as Arminians. That is why the other side of Calvinism regarding the Perseverance of the Saints, is Arminianism for if any works are required in addition to faith, then as Joseph Dillow relates: "Requirements which must be met in order to secure a certain result, going to heaven, are in fact conditions necessary for the attainment of that result. And if a life of works is a necessary condition for obtaining the result of heaven, then salvation is ultimately conditioned upon works and not faith alone.

But, I thought it was clear that Salvation is not of works.

So, Calvinists are Arminians, when it comes to the 5th point of the TULIP. I will demonstrate this later by showing quotes from respected Calvinists (Charles Hodge, Arthur Pink and Calvin himself) and Arminians regarding key scriptures on this topic.

You will see that their sentiments are the same regarding key scriptures.

So which is it? Faith or Works or a combination? Is there any responsibilities laid upon the Believer? These quotes will demonstrate works after initial faith from both camps yet we know that we are not saved by works. Do men have to be lumped into either Calvinist or Arminian categories may also be a good question?

Pilgrim

you asked:

Krispy,

Regarding 1 Jn 2:19, you cannot build a doctrine around one verse. Once you do that there is always one other verse to counteract it.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Clearly, there are some to did not "go out from us".

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

And what is the purpose of this warning:

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them THAT BELIEVED NOT.

Pilgrim

"Just for the record, I believe that no power on earth can take me out of my Lord's hand, but I can choose to walk away. This ability is the genius of God, this is how He made humans in the first place. Our very humanity lies in the ability to reject God. He is looking for a people who will freely worship Him and fellowship with Him, walk in the cool of the day. "Appolus

Very brilliantly said, Frank. The question afoot is, in AFTER walking away, and having been a Partaker of the Father through His Holy Spirit, is one yet saved; a son or daughter of God?

I think that is ever so clear that they are no longer saved, for it is written:

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. "

This clear fearful warning is ignored, and condescendingly explained away, and twisted to say that it does not mean what is taught; and that taught by the Holy Spirit of God.

There is a falling away, from separating ourselves from God, to live for ourselves. It is , in my view, in light of the judgments God has implemented from the beginning, obvious, with thousands of references in the Word of God. We can fall away after being born again; consider the once holy angels, the first created beings with a will, and being holy, a partaker of His Holy Spirit directly.

The wrath of God was never displayed before; they may have thought it did not exist. They did not consider that God cannot dwell with sin, and they rebelled. They were saved, as 2/3rds of them are yet saved. 1/3rd of the holy children were damned, after being sons. This is the nature of God, and as God is unchanging, it applies to us also, as born again sons.


"I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not."

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."


Also, there is this warning given by the great apostle, given directly to Spirit filled believers:
..........................................................
"For IF God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also SPARE NOT YOU!. "

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,

!...IF..! YOU CONTINUE in his goodness: otherwise YOU ALSO SHALL BE CUT OFF!" [ that's eternal death ]

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.".......................

I wonder if any of these multitudes argued once saved always saved to the Holy Father as they stood before His Throne of Judgment? This fearful thread of judgment is fundamental as to why we fear God, and as Frank so brilliantly noted, is the motivation that creates humility as we seek His mercies.

Jesus speaks of Himself as He exhorts us to remain in Him, and the consequences of falling away.

"But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him!"