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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The vileness of the saint

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Joined: 2010/10/6
Posts: 12


1 John 3:9 (KJV)
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 2012/4/2 22:47Profile


Eccl 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

And that in spite of grace, how vile is that??


 2012/4/2 23:54


We may have a faith that COUNTS for righteousness as did Abraham and David and any other saved person, but since God through the Apostle Paul and his servant David excluded Peter, James, John and the rest of the apostles from BEING righteous, certainly none of us can claim to be righteous. .


This is junk, Joe. Have you really read what you wrote in this quote?

If you're going to quote Romans 3:10 again and again, wouldn't it be wiser if you'd come to understand what Paul is saying in that Chpt by reading ALL of it and see what he is quoting and to 'whom' -- as this again being one of the other verses that you post often, that regards the unsaved and those that are trying to be saved according to The 613 Laws. As are the verses you quote from the O.T., as you have above.

Abraham and David, etc were declared righteous.

I fear for you, as you are posting like a Biblically illiterate or is it intentional ?
We've had some rather intensive teaching threads on 'control-cults' and one of their tactics is to make the people feel as though they're nothing but dirty dogs, by only quoting verses out of context to "break the person's spirit, in order to gain control of the person."
Those were informative threads btw.
Heb 5:13 "For every one that useth milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe" [or a cultish guru]

GOD also calls them that 'do' righteousness, "righteous", and also, "holy" [and that bothers you?]

1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

1Jn 2:29 If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that 'doeth' righteousness is born of him.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that 'doeth' righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.

1Jn 3:10 'In this' the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever 'doeth not' righteousness is not of God, 'neither he that loveth not his brother.'

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

2Pe 2:21,22 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

1Pe 1:14-17 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: but as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, "Be ye holy; for I am holy."
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear

We should fear adding to or subtracting from HIS WORDS.

How can we 'be' something that Joe is saying that we can't do and be?

P.S. Read Phil 3:9 and notice that Paul says, "which is of the Law", and then on through the rest of that Chpt.

 2012/4/3 3:55

Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2010
Joplin, Missouri



Brother, you really must take Romans 3:10 in context. Lifting it out of context causes it to be devoid of all meaning.

Let me answer your question about Rom. 7 a little bit more completely. I am a tripart being, Spirit, soul, and body. My spirit is the eternal part of me, my body is the shell I live in, and my soul can be thought of as the working of my mind, will, and emotions to think, choose, and feel.

When I was a lost man my spirit was dead toward God if you will. I was incapable of right relationship with Him. When I was born again, as Jesus taught Nicodemus, it was not my flesh that was born again, but my spirit. My soul and body were not born again. Paul teaches in Rom. 12 that my soul is in the process of being transformed by the renewing of the mind and my body eagerly awaits its own redemption which will occur when Jesus returns.

So, according to Rom. 8, it is possible to walk in the Spirit or to walk in the flesh. When I walk in the Spirit I will be governed by the Holy Spirit and I experience what Paul speaks of in 1 Cor. 2. When I walk in the flesh I give in to temptations and desires. To think that I will walk in the Spirit perfectly is not born out scripturally.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Righteousness is right standing before God. Nothing more, nothing less. When God looks at me He does not see sin, vileness, defilement, but rather He sees the righteousness of His Son, Jesus Christ. I am, in His eyes, right and in right standing by faith in Jesus Christ. It is, if you will, a positional statement. It is nothing I could ever earn, but a standing that I have been given by grace through faith.

If I sin, I am convicted by the Holy Spirit within and I repent and receive the grace and forgiveness that has already been given to me. My right standing before God has not changed as I am still trusting in what Jesus did rather than what I did.

But, some might say, what you are saying is license to sin. Not by any means. A born again man does not have a nature of sin. God has written His laws in my heart (Jeremiah and I believe Hebrews) and my hearts yearning cry is to be holy as He is holy. But I still live in a fleshly body and my mind, will, and emotions are not transformed.

So the battle, as Paul speaks of in Rom. 6-8, is not with another nature within me but rather with my flesh.

Brother, believe me when I say that I know where you are coming from when you speak of the vileness of the saint. Unfortunately a thorough study of scripture just cannot bear that out. It is absolutely true that the righteousness I possess is NOT my own righteousness. It is true that in my flesh dwells no good thing. But my spirit is born again and made truly righteous. Old things are passed away and ALL things are become new. This is a reality that is true of my spirit, not my flesh. You and I will still battle with our flesh, and we will from time to time feel a sense of despair at our weakness. But our attitude must be, "Wait a minute. I have been made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. I am a new creature. I am dead to sin. Sin will no longer have dominion over me. I praise God that I am born again and made righteous and a righteous man does not do that (whatever the sin). I repent of that and thank you Lord that I have been made right in Your sight. Give me strength by Your grace to walk out that righteousness that the fruit of holiness might be borne in my life." You see we have an advocate that has, by His own blood, declared us in right standing with the Father.

I know this is not an exhaustive list by any means but here are some verses that bear study and consideration.

2 Cor. 5:21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Hebrews 10:14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

1 Peter 3:14
But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

Brother, I am not desiring to argue or debate with you. If you are convinced that the saint is truly vile and determined to believe that then I can simply lay what I have said before you and ask you to consider it. In any case my God bless you.


 2012/4/3 8:33Profile


So the battle, as Paul speaks of in Rom. 6-8, is not with another nature within me but rather with my flesh.

If by flesh you mean skin and bones, false! If by flesh you mean soul, true, but in the soul of the man lies the nature of man. Therefore what you refer to as flesh can only be the nature of man.


 2012/4/3 8:54


Abraham and David, etc were declared righteous.

Actually it is declared that their faith was "COUNTED for righteousness". Romans chapter 4 explains how the saint can be counted as righteous in spite of being vile.

Read it again:

Romans 4:3-5 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was COUNTED unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.


 2012/4/3 9:00

Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2010
Joplin, Missouri



When we are born again, we take on the divine nature. You see, your spirit is who you are. It is the eternal part of you. If you want to use the term nature, which is really not a Biblical term at all, then I would say that the nature of a man is bound up in the condition of the spirit of the man. I have a regenerated spirit and am become a partaker in the divine nature. However my soul and body (my flesh) is not born again. It still retains many of the same lusts, passions, desires, memories, etc. So the battle is to bring the flesh into submission to the spirit that is in communion with the Holy Spirit. This does not effect my righteousness (right standing) before God. But now I have the power of the Holy Spirit to enable me to walk according to the grace that has been bestowed upon me.

That is what I mean.


 2012/4/3 11:50Profile


Yes, I do understand Rom 4, but do you understand the verses that I posted in my last post and Hebrews 11 & James 2:14-26?

We need to widen things a bit and maybe include Matthew 25 as well.


 2012/4/3 11:54


I am trash!

 2012/4/3 13:17

Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


Joe, twayneb has got it. Where do you find this biblical term of human nature?

When we are regenerated, we are not 50% regenerated. After regeneration we are partakers of the Divine nature not the Satanic nature, anymore. We have been translated out of the Kingdom of Darkness. Of course patterns and imprints of sin are in our flesh and memory and that is why we must be renewed in our mind and abide everyday in Christ, learning to yield our members unto righteousness and to resist the Devil and flee temptation.

The NIV introduced this dual-nature conflict as if we are schizophrenics. Maybe, it was introduced earlier by men's writings.

There are not 3 natures in this Universe. There are two. The Divine Nature and the Satanic nature/character. We are containers and simply derive our nature/character from God or Satan.

We choose to abide in one of them and then we produce fruit based on which nature we are deriving our "life" from.

If man had his very own, nature, then the New Agers are right. But they are not. We have no self-independent nature that allows us to stand fully apart from God or Satan as a 3rd independent entity in this Universe.

We yield our members to Righteousness (God) or Unrighteousness (Satan).


 2012/4/3 13:19Profile

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