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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Some Quotations On The Biblical View Of Headcovering

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pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Hi roadsign,

Always enjoy your posts. I think the "rule" is that men and women should look distinctively different. Distinctively male and distinctively female. But, we also have to be careful about rules, don't we?

Our African sisters actually have very closely cropped hair. I am sure they and their husbands and their church family have other ways to distinguish between men and women. Not sure if they have a difficult time with the feminist spirit that Americans have.

I know when I was invited to a Brethren Assembly, that as a "denomination" one of their outward marks is the head covering. Some do and some don't "cover" with cloth, but whatever one does it must be done in faith.

Yes, you are right. Everyone has their "head covering" or habit. Whether it is robes, or their best Sunday clothes or whatever. Just do it all in faith and concentrate on the most important things.

Pilgrim

 2012/2/10 17:33Profile









 Re:

"Some do and some don't "cover" with cloth, but whatever one does it must be done in faith. "

Amen pilgrim - it must be done in faith, a clean conscience, and to the light we have and not the light that others have os say that they have.

"Yes, you are right. Everyone has their "head covering" or habit. Whether it is robes, or their best Sunday clothes or whatever. Just do it all in faith and concentrate on the most important things. "

The difference being the head covering is appointed in scripture (for those who read it as a cloth) while robes are worn by clergy men playing dress up. Sunday clothe are a biproduct of the vanity of the victorian era and man made religious traditions.

In Christ -Jim

 2012/2/10 17:36
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Well, it all comes down to being gracious and loving Jim.

I don't know if you have been in many and varied fellowships but I have and when you are in different situations and fellowships, it doesn't build relationships very well if you start picking on people's peculiar traditions and habits. Robes are also worn by people in choirs. There are some real Godly men by the way, that wear robes.

As we have seen in this discussion, many people think the external cloth is a man-made tradition. I have no problem with traditions as long as they don't nullify the Word of God. And you have not made a good and convincing case that external cloths on the head as coverings are not man-made traditions, either.

Paul had no problem with traditions and customs, either. He became all things to all men that he might win some.

Pilgrim

 2012/2/10 17:50Profile
CJeanne
Member



Joined: 2009/9/27
Posts: 41


 Re: end of subject for me

Well Sean, I guess it's you, me and Lisa sharing the unpopular point of view here. I appreciate your support. The hair delegation seem to have won their point, although I can't say I'm favorable to their methods.

I'm sure you agree with me that the point isn't whether individuals choose to cover or not, this isn't something God left to us to determine for ourselves, it isn't about custom or tradition, the issue is what Paul meant and what God would want for the entire church. And I think you made the case and so did I (I haven't seen Lisa's arguments) that he was calling for a cloth covering. That's how the early church understood him, and that's how all the churches down to the 20th century understood him.

This is NOT a Roman Catholic tradition, this belongs to all the churches.

Interestingly, a point we haven't gone into here is that the main way this passage is interpreted these days is not hair or a cloth covering but the idea that Paul is merely advocating feminine appearance. Someone has mentioned that opinion here but it should be acknowledged that it is a major line of reasoning that I believe got started by Thomas Schreiner in a book put out by the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. I deal with Dr. Schreiner's article on my blog, but the only thing I want to say about that position here is that they all agree that Paul was requiring a cloth head covering, not hair. They simply insist on seeing it as a cultural fad of his day that we must replace with whatever suits our culture today. That can't be so of course because none of the cultures involved required the head covering as Paul preached it and Paul was not arguing from secular culture but from God's creation order of the man first and the woman from the man, and the universal differences between men and women, never from mere human culture.

However, the main point I want to make is that all who hold that point of view reject hair as the proper understanding of the passage.

It's only very recently that the interpretation of hair has become so popular, and I believe both you and I made good cases against that, but nobody that I've seen has actually addressed any of the arguments. At least not on this thread.

You also made the excellent case against long hair that Paul would not have gone to such pains to make so many separate arguments over fifteen verses if all he meant to say was that women should have long hair. In a culture where long hair was the norm that would simply make no sense and be a huge waste of time.

Apparently there is no way to actually engage anyone on the other side in the reasoning involved on this subject. Unless you have succeeded on some other thread I haven't yet seen. People have their beliefs or their impressions they believe come from the Holy Spirit and aren't interested in addressing the many good reasons that have been given why hair is not the head covering.

And these are reasons I also believe have been given by the Holy Spirit and not conjured up from the flesh. In fact, of course I believe the hair interpretation comes from the flesh. It's a lot easier on the female ego than having to wear a scarf, allows her to display her glory proudly and so on.

I honestly don't know what to make of all this. I don't think I've ever encountered such a complete unwillingness to address the specifics of the argument.

Well, it's been interesting but I see no point in continuing.

http://gloryhidden.blogspot.com/

 2012/2/10 18:12Profile









 Re:

Pilgrim, in love,

"it doesn't build relationships very well if you start picking on people's peculiar traditions and habits. Robes are also worn by people in choirs. There are some real Godly men by the way, that wear robes. "

Matthew 23:5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.


I guess Jesus was not good at building relationships then. There are some really godly men that do many foolish things btw.

"And you have not made a good and convincing case that external cloths on the head as coverings are not man-made traditions, either."

I have not tried to do so. You will not find one post where I am trying to convince others of this. I have only said that we should walk to the light we have, but not be lazy about studying these things either.

"Paul had no problem with traditions and customs, either. He became all things to all men that he might win some."

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Pagen religious customs are forbidden. I am sorry if I stepped on a sacred cow...

Jim

 2012/2/10 18:19
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Hi Jim,

You did not kill any sacred cows here, though I will say that they do make good hamburgers. I was speaking about graciousness and love when you are in other fellowships that might not dress just like you do. Nothing about their dress being "empty deceit" or "vain philosophies". I don't think you understand what I am trying to convey to you. That's ok. We don't have to camp out here.

Pilgrim

 2012/2/10 18:24Profile









 Re:

OK Pilgrim. I do burn to see the bride freed from Roman Catholic traditions. God bless, I will look for you on a thread where we agree on something before I post to you again! Gods best to you friend. Jim

 2012/2/10 18:32
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greetings CJeanne

I read though your last post and just wanted to make sure you know that I welcome you to the forum and that I have no issue with you sharing what GOD has laid upon your heart.

I hope you and I can agree that since this is not a salvation issue we can still call each other sisters in CHRIST and perhaps share on many other topics as HE leads us :)

There is a very good discussion on the topic of modesty going on that I have been very encouraged by perhaps if you feel led by the LORD you might check it out. I know that is another topic of interest to many sister who walk with the LORD.

I hope all who have taken part in this thread will be blessed, for me this was never about being "right" or proving another person "wrong"...I pray as in all things JESUS will be lifted up and glorified.

God bless you
mary

 2012/2/10 19:04Profile
savedtoserve
Member



Joined: 2011/4/7
Posts: 255


 Re:

Quote:
Folks, I am convinced "head covering" means hair.



This is a very widespread take on this passage, I know. But if this was so, then men would need to shave their heads when prophesying/praying... Is that what you all believe who share the view that the hair is the covering? If not, what is your explanation?

I have followed these threads quite closely, though this is my first comment... I haven't seen this addressed yet--if it has been, forgive me.

And please, let's not make it a matter of whether it will get us to heaven or not...since when does that factor determine our Christian walk??

 2012/2/10 19:06Profile
learjet
Member



Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re:

Quote:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. -John 3:16


Yes Lord, that's true!

Quote:
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. -Matthew 6:33


Yes Lord, that's true!

Quote:
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." -John 14:6


Yes Lord, that's true!

Quote:
This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus -Romans 3:22-24


Yes Lord, that's true!

Quote:
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. -Romans 8:28


Yes Lord, that's true!

Quote:
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. -Revelation 22:13


Yes Lord, that's true!

Quote:
But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. -1 John 1:9


Yes Lord, that's true!

Quote:
Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:26


Yes Lord, that's true!

Quote:
Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel" -Acts 2:14-16


Yes Lord, that's true!

Quote:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. -Ephesians 2:8-9


Yes Lord, that's true!

Quote:
For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. -Jeremiah 29:11


Yes Lord, that's true!

Quote:
His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. -Revelation 19:12


Yes Lord, that's true!

Quote:
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. -Hebrews 13:8


Yes Lord, that's true!

Quote:
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. -2 Kings 2:11


Yes Lord, that's true!

Quote:
But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. -1 Corinthians 11:3-5



Umm, hold on a second here Lord… Is this true?

Notice we only question the last quoted verse. Why is that?

Quote:
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “DID GOD REALLY SAY, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”



Did God really say that Eve? Is that REALLY what He meant? Surely you can't be THAT simplistic Eve…

 2012/2/10 19:29Profile





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