"To indentify her Jeremiah uses the mother-daughther relationship, that only fits on one specific relationship in our time. The mother is England, and she is still around to see her offspring fall"

Brother - it also fits the relationship of rome and the backslidden protestant churches in the last day. Almost all Bible commentaries prior to the last 50 years recognized rome as the great whore and many recognized her daughters too.

Dear Jim,

you should try to understand what Jeremiah is talking about, he is talking about a nation, his full and only context is "the hindermost of the nations"

Commentators are famous to miss details, just like they missed it in Daniel 8 when they overlooked this qualifier "and touched not the ground" in:

Daniel 8:5  And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

You need to have airplanes for that, something Alexander the great did not have, that is an exclusive qualifier for the end of times. This prophecy actually was sealed until this time and could not be understood earlier, so all Bible commentators of old times are not in any advantage if they chose to overlook that tiny little fact, actually they only prove themselves to be wrong in cases like these. We can see this today by taking the scriptures seriously and willingly choose not to rely on past half-truths. That's a requirement if you want to understand truth.

a-servant,

"you should try to understand what Jeremiah is talking about"

What do you think the connection is between revelation 17-18 and Jeremiah?

"We can see this today by taking the scriptures seriously and willingly choose not to rely on past half-truths. That's a requirement if you want to understand truth."

Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth. Are you suggesting I should yeild influence to you but not to Godly men of the past? So anyone who suggests there is a different viable meaning is not serious about understanding the truth? Forgive me if I read you wrong brother.

Also - can I ask what type of fellowship / church you are involved with. I think that plays an import part in this issue too.

I did not write my comment to offend you, only to say there is another viable meaning besides what you presented.

-Jim

In his book, "Set the trumpet to thy mouth", David Wilkerson was one of the first known & respected names to say what you are saying, a-servant. That America is Babylon.

Jim,
I believe there is reference to a physical Babylon in Revelation that is America. I also believe there is a reference to a spiritual Babylon the Great that is Rome. There are tons of evidences in Bible prophecy to support the fact that it isn't an either/or, but both.
Jeff
Time is short. Judgement is at the door

The one world religion has already been born and sits in Manhattan, NY - 'that great city'.

This is a very 'spiritual' year for those who subscribe to this inter-faith united religion.

From a Christian site -

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/forcing-change/12/1-calendar.htm


I just read a long article about the half-time show at this last super-bowl, from some that are very adept at occultic symbology. It was much more complex than what I had imagined that she'd pull off in that small amount of time. Madonna is known for her strong occultic background and she stated that this show of hers would be very 'spiritual'. It certainly was, from all that I've read tonight. Thank GOD I didn't see it but grateful for those that explained the symbology of every aspect of that 13 minute blasphemous 'message to the world'. Her program schedule titled this show "Polytheism".
Remembering that Monotheism is the enemy of Polytheism and that this particular year is Very significant to these pagan-occultists and their utopian dream of a one-world under their order.
It would take a tractor trailer worth of documentation to go into the depths of the mystery religion of Babylon, but simply put, it's seat of power is definitely in and through the UN which sits in that great city.

That great city that temporarily rides that Beast.

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns [the 10 kings over the 10 'bio-regions] which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

etc chpt 18

"I believe there is reference to a physical Babylon in Revelation that is America. I also believe there is a reference to a spiritual Babylon the Great that is Rome. There are tons of evidences in Bible prophecy to support the fact that it isn't an either/or, but both.
Jeff"

Jeff - I agree too. I would say that rome is babylon the great and America is babylonian though. That is why I asked a-servant how he viewed Revelation 17/18 in light of Jeremiah. Also, brother Wilkerson, he refers to organized religion in the west as being babylon in his audio message "God is training a holy remnant".


"Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; "

God is calling His people out of spiritual babylon - I can post dozens of scriptures that agree with this. To say that God is calling His people out of america though, as a-servant suggested, would be quite a stretch at best.


As a-servant said my focus might be half the truth, but i believe his is too.

Thanks Jeff for you wise words. There is a lot to think about and gleam from this thread.

In Christ -Jim

Also, good to note that Rome is not just spiritual, but is based on the unholy merger of church and state under constantine. Much like evangelical christianity mixing with the republican party. Rome uses the state to achive her ends and get her power.

I actually was talking about Rome earlier in another thread, of course there is no doubt in anybodys mind that it is part of mystery Babylon, that has more than one component.

That is hardly denied by anybody, what is however largely ignored and denied is that America the nation and NYC the city are a part of this constellation. To downplay that discovery was a great focus on most forums about 5 or 10 years ago, with many people trying to convince themselves that the world's most influential merchants are either from Rome or Jerusalem or a city in the future still to be build.

Then at the same time the "spritualizing" went into effect, of never just reading and accepting plain words like "nation" and "city" and so clearly identifying who qualifies and who doesn't in the outside world. Even if historically viewed, everyone should know that Babylon always was a nation, and of course that nation component is still valid in our time. It's only really painful to discover and fully to look at it, admitting there are pieces of scripture that do not leave even a shadow of a doubt of who it is.

Why is that relevant, and why is that important? Well, if you read Jerimiah 50/51 with your fullest attention, one will discover there are commands included, obviously only for those that understand that these are meant for them. Which are not easy to put into practice. I refer to the long-lasting thread series by Rookie in the scripture and doctrines section here, where he told us of a great example of what faith is to him, accepting and doing what God said, just because God said so, even when it meant a inconcenience to him he not fully understood the final reason of why God asked him to change his location and his job. I very much understand and agree with this brother, I change continents when God tells me to.

It was the evil forces of Satan acting through religion that persecuted Jesus, and likewise it is primarily through the "front" of religion that the Evil One continues to harass and do battle against Christians. Will Christians endure and persevere in their faithful reliance upon the victory that Jesus Christ won at the cross, or will they revert to religious practices that effectively deny Jesus Christ? This is the issue being addressed throughout the Revelation, and even more particularly in these chapters.

I found this very enlightening.

Religion and the Beasts
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/revbeast.html

Religion and Babylon
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/revbabyl.html

Pilgrim