| Poster | Thread | roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: | | In whatever way we think through this, lets guard against stabbing our own toes, in other words, creating hindrances to the real purpose of Scripture: that man may come to know God and be saved. I address some red flags come to mind as I read this thread.
Quote:
The reasons you mainly believe in for an old earth are scientific reasons
but not scriptural reasons.
. In other words: but not my UNDERSTANDING of scripture.
There are fine believers in both old and young earth camps. Old earth theory need not contradict creation. But note also: There are fine believers who thought the earth was flat. There are fine believers in ancient times who accepted the generally held view of their day as in this biblical writer:
"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Ex. 20:3-5
This was how the civilization understood their universe back then. The earth had a big dome over it, and water under it. The concern for the biblical writers was the relationship with God. Trusting in the creation (as they saw it) threatened their trust in God. Same thing today. Even our creation theories can become idols. Even in defending Genesis 1 and 2, we may be are partnering with Eve in Gen. 3 by taking the fruit: We want to conquer knowledge and be masters as god.
If we insist on absolute finite literalism as a means of deducing scientific data from Gen 1, then it stands to reason that we apply that method consistently in scripture. Should we not also believe the earth has four corners? No! We know the Bible writers used a large assortment of literacy devises especially in poetry. They didnt write in the style of a scientific journal.
We cant turn the creation account into scientific data, and then judge anothers spirituality by our own conclusions.
Caution is needed when pitting science against the bible. Science, in its purity, can serve to REVEAL truth about a Creator. We are justified in pointing to scientific data about a leaf to point to God as creator. But then - what about when we turn around and insist that what they measure through their telescopes is unreliable evidence?
God could indeed have made a young earth LOOK old for reasons we cannot understand. Or, fossils could have been formed in an instant. However, lets think about the heart of God. He wants people to trust in him, and he helps them out with evidence of his existence, even in their unbelief. The heavens declare the glory of God. Jesus did signs and miracles so that they would see the EVIDENCE and trust God. Likewise God was not out to spoof humanity with misleading evidence, but to build trust, not blind trust but trust in a reality. That goes for scientists too.
Science today has become a religion in itself, certainly the obsessive search for origin. Science is our modern day Babel tower, the workings of humanitys hunger to find something under the sun (in the created order) something which can give meaning and purpose to life. Surely God can use the billions of years (proven or not) just like he can use the billions of stars: To reveal that God is infinitely more than we can fathom or imagine. The mightiest searches of man cannot reach the perimeters of our finite world both in time and space. How much greater is our infinite God!
And proclaiming this God is our job - through the evidence of our life testimony.
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Diane
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|  2012/1/30 9:38 | Profile | MrBillPro
Member
Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas
| | Re: | | I guess there is nothing wrong with treading a "little" into the past. I always wanted to know were God come from, but then again it really don't matter to me anymore, I am just thankful he showed up.
I guess on threads like this I think of Philippians 3:13
"Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before"
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Bill
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| | 2012/1/30 10:35 | Profile | TrueWitness
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Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 661
| | Re: Arthur Custance | | I had never heard of Arthur Custance till you suggested him, so I did some investigation. One of the books by Custance is entitled "Without Form and Void." As it turns out, Custance is a Gap Theory proponent like I am. Here is an introduction of the book found on his publishers website. The entire book can be downloaded (as an offline webpage) by clicking the link just below the Table of Contents.
http://www.custance.org/Library/WFANDV/index.html
Book Intro:
Should Genesis 1:2 be rendered (as in the King James Version) "And the earth was without form and void" OR "But the earth had become without form and void"? The question is whether to translate the Hebrew conjunction waw as 'and' or 'but' and whether to translate the verb hayah simply as 'was' or by the pluperfect 'had become'.
If the translation of 'and' and 'was' is correct, then verse 2 appears to be merely a continuation of verse 1, signifying that its formless condition was proper to the initial stages of God's creative activity. In this translation we must either take 'days' to mean not literal days but geological ages, or treat the whole chapter as poetry or allegory. These 'solutions' are not supported by the rules of linguistics.
If the translation of 'but' and 'had become' is correct, the implication is far different. For then verse 2 is a picture of the earth, not as it came from the hand of God in creation, but after some intervening event had reduced it to a state of ruin. This alternative translation allows between verse 1 and 2 a hiatus of unknown duration (a view held in earliest times) which can accommodate geological ages. Opponents object to this 'Gap Theory' as simply an attempt to 'rescue' modern Geology.
End of Intro
Custance goes to show that it probably should be translated "had become without form and void." Thus there is definitely an unspecified time gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. |
| | 2012/1/30 10:37 | Profile | roadsign
Member
Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: | | Some Biblical scholars suggest that the Biblical creation story was crafted in such as way as to confront and contrast an ancient mythological creation account - which also used the series of days.
The difference would have been noticeable: In the Genesis creation humanity was NOT an arbitrary product of the deities' vengeance (as in the myth). Humanity was NOT created as a mass of slaves to serve the deities lusts. No! God created two people individually: Adam and Eve, to fellowship with him in perfect blissful RELATIONSHIP. Creation was a work of LOVE.
And for that reason you and I can trust God and his precious love for us. You and I are each important to God.
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2012/1/30 10:47 | Profile | MrBillPro
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Posts: 3422
Texas
| | Re: | | Most of us don't need to know more, we just need to do more.:)
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Bill
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| | 2012/1/30 10:55 | Profile | twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Most of us don't need to know more, we just need to do more.:)
MrBillPro
There is a degree to which I agree with you totally here. Our Christian walk does not consist of the amount of knowledge we can amass, but rather the ONE that we know and walk close to. However we cannot totally disregard the fact that we are to study to rightly divide scripture.
I have heard many say that the creation issue is a side issue. I don't agree. Genesis is the foundation of scripture. In Genesis are found most all major doctrines of scripture. This book has the same validity as any other book as far as doctrine and importance to our walk as believers. It is important that we study and discuss it as well as we do any other book. I know when I taught Genesis at a church camp one year it had a very powerful and lasting impact on the kids that were there.
_________________
Travis
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| | 2012/1/30 16:19 | Profile |
| | Re: twayneb | | If creationism was simply a forum to pander to opposing views reminiscent of a Punch and Judy show then i for one would not bother posting,as you mentioned about the powerful and lasting impact on kids at a church camp takes the teaching into a new realm.
The facts are that you cannot teach old dogs new tricks and that applies to Christian doctrine.
None of us know the audience that reads these posts and testimonies,ample proof is available that unbelievers have been led to salvation through the Holy Spirit blessing the ministry of those that teach creation i post the following as an example.
A testimony: Joel Galvin
Faith shipwrecked by compromising Christian colleges; restored by creation ministry
First published in:
Prayer News, 1999
(Australia, New Zealand and United Kingdom)
Growing up in a Christian home, attending church regularly, and receiving Christian education my whole life served to make me an agnostic who was pretty knowledgeable of the Christian faith. Christianity seemed to be a hoax of some nature. I couldnt understand the motive for dreaming it up, but it certainly didnt appear to carry much truth with it. Seeing that atheism is a strong belief in the non-existence of any gods at all, I knew that atheism required more faith than I had. I didnt want to accept atheism out of laziness, and so, agnosticism would do for me until I found more answers.
I moved away from home, to be a car salesman. I was living on my own, and stopped attending church. Church seemed to be where one would go after accepting Christianity as truth, it just wasnt the place you would go to find truth.
After two years of selling cars, I realized I wished to further my education. My choice as to which school I would attend was made for me when I acted on wishful thinking, and followed my ex-girlfriend to the Christian college she was to attend.
A couple of months after being at this private school, I realized that if anyone can defend Christianity with any supporting evidences or philosophical truths, it would be the well-educated people heading the institution. Christianity was then worth another chance, as perhaps these people could provide the answers I needed to hear and just couldnt find before. Whether I received good answers or bad answers, I realized asking the questions would either lead me to truth, or totally eliminate what still remained a possibility in my mind.
What were my questions? The Bible clearly indicates that the earth is young, and that death and decay have been imposed on a once perfect world through the sin of man. How then does Christianity deal with the fact of evolution? If death existed long before man ever came about, and this is required in evolution, then man cannot really be held accountable for it, and any redemption plan offered to counter-attack such horror, is merely a joke. Evolution being true makes Jesus life, and more importantly His death, absolutely meaningless. This was my problem with Christianity, and this is what I was to bring to the educational leaders at this Christian institution.
The conclusion to this testimony can be read at:
http://creation.com/a-testimony-joel-galvin |
| | 2012/1/30 16:41 | | staff
Member
Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227
| | Re: | | Hi,
To those of us who are born of the Spirit creation isnt a salvation issue but to the lost it can be an impediment.
Faulty science by evolution leaning secular scientists is reason for the millions of years theory whether you are a person who believes in evolution or a christian who doesnt believe in evolution but do believe in millions of years.
Yours Staff |
| | 2012/1/30 16:42 | Profile | jochbaptist
Member
Joined: 2010/11/24
Posts: 341
| | Re: Arthur Custance | | Yes, but what about Exodus 20:11?
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J Kruger
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| | 2012/1/31 6:34 | Profile | roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: THE ALMIGHTY DARWIN | | Quote:
To those of us who are born of the Spirit creation isnt a salvation issue but to the lost it can be an impediment.
Faulty science by evolution leaning secular scientists is reason for the millions of years theory.
I believe that a spiritual blindness, not merely calculations, is the reason evolution is so adamantly reinforced. I share a story:
A while ago a zealous evolution proponent took it open himself to convert me and rescue me from the oppressive confines of my religion. He sent me emails of articles, youtube clips, books, and also videos promoting evolution. He was quite the evangelist for evolution! I did check out the information and made some interesting observations seen through THEIR eyes:
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Darwin is the saviour of the world.
He was persecuted.
He was a very humble and nice man.
He was reluctant to disclose his discoveries at first, knowing they would be rejected.
He rescued us from the dark ages of oppressive religion so we could move forward.
Evolution is essential to the discovery of new pharmaceuticals, etc.
Evolution makes it possible for our civilization to advance.
Apart from evolution, wed still be in the dark ages.
Mythological assumptions and superstitions have hindered science, so we must reject all religion.
Religions have been the great enemy of science and progress.
Since Christianity is a religion, its our enemy too. (Notice the UN-scientific logic here!)
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MY OBSERVATIONS:
In defending evolution, they submit to the common patterns of faulty logic.
To prove their position they claim that their theory is Fact, rather than an interpretation of their data.
To disprove the counter-position (ie creation) they reason like this: We see many religions supporting superstitions and since Christianity is a religion it is necessarily superstitious too. There is no reality outside of the natural world or what can be scientifically measured. God and science are not mutually compatible.
Evolutionists ignore the Christian beliefs of those scientists who made outstanding contributions - even the ones who studied at the same university as Darwin did (Cambridge).
Science, being the hegemony, takes it upon itself to explain and correct the effects of sin with science. Of course, its like catching the wind. Sins effects dont go away most notably death.
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MY RESPONSE:
Since Science insists on limiting itself to a finite box, I felt I needed to prod my atheist acquaintance to think beyond the box. So I encouraged him to be open for possibilities of a reality which he has never dreamed of yet. He said he was willing to do that. That opened the door for me to share Christ as the spiritual source of hope, meaning, and abundant life in this world, and the next. I think that was more productive than arguing over evolution either old or young earth.
Even our science/evolution-minded society, if it can get its nose out of the test tubes, telescopes, and theories and LOOK at our world, it can see the evidence of spiritual need - and admit that mans efforts religion, science or otherwise have not provided a successful remedy. Surely, PRESENT reality is one of the best door openers for the Christian faith.
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2012/1/31 9:06 | Profile |
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