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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is the denial of the eternal Sonship of Christ a damnable heresy?

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 Re:

Miccah

Summarizing in two sentences. JIG believes the Son of God did not become the Son of God until the incarnation. Another belief she has presented here is that the Son of God is subservient to God the Father.



OJ

 2012/1/17 0:42









 Re:

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?

he that hath seen me hath 'seen the Father'; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Quote:
That verse plainly teaches co-equality, not subservience, and neither that the Father specifically has been seen, but only that all the fulness of the Father is seen in the Son.






Jesus was 'subservient' while in the flesh to 'The Father' - but co-equality means that even though He was The "Servant" mentioned in the O.T., [while in the flesh], subservient - He was still 100% GOD - the "co-EQUALity" part - so why would it not include Philip and company "seeing the father" when seeing Him, as Is 9:6 says ... Is that not EQUALITY?


While in the flesh - He 'became' 100% man yet was still 100% GOD.

[Caps, not yelling - just emphasis]


----

Why exactly are you having trouble with that part or that word, 'subservient'?

He claimed to be Only doing 'the Father's' will and nothing of Himself, through-out.

Looking at Webster's - what do you find in that word that bothers you?

 2012/1/17 0:44









 Re:

Quote:
Miccah

Summarizing in two sentences. JIG believes the Son of God did not become the Son of God until the incarnation. Another belief she has presented here is that the Son of God is subservient to God the Father.



OJ




Joe, I'd sure appreciate that you cease answering for me to others, as in "this is what she believes" - because every time that you have on this thread - you have not expressed what I believe.

Sure would make any discussions we have, much more fair, easy and save me the time of having to counter those type incorrect posts.
If you want to discuss this topic with me - I'm open to answer any and all questions - as I've been trying to - in my own words.


{eta}
Quote:
I know you believe it is a lesser authoritative portion of the Word, but you have to comb the Old Testament too.



Another false statement, Joe. "lesser authoritative".

Earlier in this thread I stated clearly that I went on a search through-out the O.T. for "Jesus" so that I also could better witness WHO He is, to my Jewish friends/neighbors - and answer their questions on TriTheism.

I hold both books as One Book.

I have pushed the N.T. in other threads because the majority out there in Christian world, only quote the same verses over and over again - and leave off 1/2 to 3/4 of the Whole.

If we don't understand the New first, about Jesus - how can we find Him or His Words in the Old?

More time wasted because of you misquoting me.

I don't have this problem with any other Brother here.

Please, don't read into other's posts what they've never said.



Thanks!!!

 2012/1/17 1:06









 Re:

I can't sleep. I tossed and turned with something really bothering me and it has bothered me for a long time.

Paul said in Phil 3 [of all people] --- "that I might KNOW Him ..." and that's Paul saying that, Joe. You say that you know Him and fully in that you 'understand the trinity' - yet Paul cries out "to KNOW Him".

You claim His Spirit has taught you the trinity.

I say, it was the teachings of the men that some call the Early Church Fathers that taught us what we teach as the doctrine of the trinity.

For instance -- Where in the Bible did they get off calling the Three-in-ONE by these names ....

The "1st" person of the trinity - the "2nd" person of the trinity - the "3rd" person of the trinity ...

Where do we find that in The WORD? Is that Perfect Equality?

Secondly - "the creeds" that they came up with, hundreds of years after He rose....

quote: "I believe in God The Father creator of Heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ His Only Son......."


In the Gospel of John and Colossians - Who does it say, "created all things" in so many different wordings?

Does John and Colossians take away from Genesis 1? NO!

And had they said, also, 'His only "Begotten" Son' ... I'd have no problem with that 2nd part of the first sentence of that creed.

The 'subtlety' of wording in the words of men, diminish the Absolute Equal-ness of The Three in ONE, as found in The WORD by itself.


I understand, to a degree, calling Jesus [post incarnate] a "person" - but the Word translated as "person" is προσωπον and here is the defintion and where and how προσωπον is used in the N.T. ...

G4383
πρόσωπον
prosōpon
Thayer Definition:
1) the face
1a) the front of the human head
1b) countenance, look
1b1) the face so far forth as it is the organ of sight, and by it various movements and changes) the index of the inward thoughts and feelings
1c) the appearance one presents by his wealth or property, his rank or low condition
1c1) outward circumstances, external condition
1c2) used in expressions which denote to regard the person in one’s judgment and treatment of men
2) the outward appearance of inanimate things
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number:
"""from G4314 and ops (the visage, from G3700)"""



G4383
προσωπον
prosopon
Total KJV Occurrences: 81

face, 51
Mat_6:17, Mat_11:10, Mat_16:3, Mat_17:2, Mat_17:6, Mat_18:10, Mat_26:39, Mat_26:67, Mar_1:2, Mar_14:65, Luk_1:76, Luk_2:31, Luk_5:12, Luk_7:27, Luk_9:51-53 (3), Luk_10:1, Luk_12:56, Luk_17:16, Luk_21:35, Luk_22:64, Act_6:15 (2), Act_7:45, Act_17:26, Act_20:25, Act_20:38, Act_25:16 (2), 1Co_13:12 (2), 1Co_14:25, 2Co_3:7, 2Co_3:13, 2Co_3:18, 2Co_4:6, 2Co_11:20, Gal_1:22, Gal_2:11, Col_2:1, 1Th_2:17, 1Th_3:10, Jam_1:23, 1Pe_3:12, Rev_4:7, Rev_6:16, Rev_10:1, Rev_12:14, Rev_20:11, Rev_22:4

presence, 7
Act_3:13, Act_3:19, Act_5:41, 2Co_10:1, 1Th_2:17, 2Th_1:9, Heb_9:24

faces, 6
Mat_6:16, Luk_24:5, Rev_7:11, Rev_9:7 (2), Rev_11:16

person, 5
Mat_22:16 (2), Mar_12:14, Luk_20:21, 2Co_2:10, Gal_2:6

countenance, 3
Luk_9:29, Act_2:28, 2Co_3:7

appearance, 2
2Co_5:12, 2Co_10:7

before, 2
Act_13:24, 2Co_8:24

persons, 2
2Co_1:11, Jud_1:16

fashion, 1
Jam_1:11

men’s, 1
Jud_1:16

outward, 1
2Co_10:7



I understand we use the word "person" because each of The Three-in-One can be seen individually, at times - but to label them #1, 2 and 3 runs the risk of taking away from the Absolure Equality of the Three-in-One. It almost sounds like a form of 'ranks' of authority.

As with "The Holy Spirit". He is called "The Spirit of GOD" - "His Spirit" and "The Spirit of Christ Jesus".

Jesus is called The Creator.
GOD is called The Creator.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; AND THERE IS NONE ELSE.

.... No Other "person" created the heavens - GOD "Himself" formed the earth, etc "THERE IS NONE ELSE" ... ie, no other "person" but HIM. No "2nd Person" but "GOD Himself".

Again back to John and Colossians - The Word of GOD that was begotten and called Jesus, is said to have done the same in creating all things - but if He's the "2nd person" ... why did GOD say "and there is None else".


Phew. Not only do we need to compare the Old with the New Testaments but we need also to do a very careful study of the words of those called the ECF and their creeds, that were written and formulated hundreds of yrs after Christ rose and look at their declarations and compare them to The Word of GOD alone.

This is what I've struggled with because I want to KNOW Him, as Paul cried out to, and as John did.

If Paul, of all people, cried out to KNOW Him - than who are we to say that we've grasped the Absolute Equal-ness and full nature of The Three in One - when I have found that what the Church has really been taught is what men have made written dogma, that contradicts or waters down The very Word of GOD about Who GOD is, in His Fullness.

Co-Equality means Absolute Equal-ness of The Three in One .... thus fulfilling the very Shema that Jesus spoke, as well, while He was here on earth ....

Mar 12:28,29 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
And Jesus answered him, The First of all the commandments is, "Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is One Lord" ....

Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Mar 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly,
he said unto him, "Thou art not far from the kingdom of God."...

-

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Not just by His Word, but also He includes, by His Spirit and by His Hand.
So - All of The Three in One created jointly because they are One GOD - Elohim - not seperate 'persons that are numbered as if by some order of authority but Perfectly in union.

His Spirit 'belongs' to Him - It's His Spirit - His Spirit is also The Spirit of Christ, which is The Spirit of GOD. The Three are ONE. Creator GOD - tripartite - yet One Person created all things, The Word states.

The GOD of The Word is GOD.
The Spirit of GOD is GOD.
The Word of GOD that became Jesus is equally GOD.

One GOD taking part in Creation and all things created - not seperately but as One Creator GOD.



Bless The One True GOD, creator of Heaven and earth - "GOD our Saviour"!




 2012/1/17 3:36









 Re:

Quote:
I can't sleep. I tossed and turned with something really bothering me and it has bothered me for a long time.

Paul said in Phil 3 [of all people] --- "that I might KNOW Him ..." and that's Paul saying that, Joe. You say that you know Him and fully in that you 'understand the trinity' - yet Paul cries out "to KNOW Him".



This is excellent news ma'am, almost gives me the shivers. Been praying for you since our last encounter that "you might know Him". Up last night praying again....

He (the Spirit of God) is the only one who is going to make this real to you, I am just some dumb schmuck that He is trying to use in spite of all the stumbles I make along the way.

Back to business.

Have you ever heard that all things come 'from' the Father, 'through' the Son, 'by' the Holy Spirit?

Do some searches.

From the Father

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Through the Son
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

By the Spirit
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

The Son is our Bridge to the Father who is the source, all quickened (brought to life) by the Spirit.

Creation, and salvation came the same way in the Old Testament (From the Father who is the source, through the Son, who is the bridge, by the Holy Spirit who is the 'for lack of a better word' doer). If the Son wasn't always the Son none of it could have happened, because the bridge was incomplete.


OJ

 2012/1/17 7:13









 Re:

Joe, your reply ...........

I tossed and turned because I needed to put into writing the thoughts that I have had "for years" ... as the post said ....

and by "years" - I mean "many" - [especially with Phil 3 which PastorFrin posted much on] and am not "pondering", but stated plainly in my post my disagreement with how some men, named by some as the ECF ....... how they have explained the Trinity as "fact" but in their own words and made it into creeds and doctrines that contradict Scripture.

These thoughts and ponderings and searching and work put into the search on this issue that I posted are all before I knew even SI.






I'd ask folks to please, if you do bother with this thread at all - please read what the poster has Actually said themselves and not another poster's interpretation of what that poster has said ... [reminds me of mainstream media :]






But we should always pray for each other and it's been mutual.

HE is the Only Good One.

 2012/1/17 10:33









 Re:

Quote:
If the Son wasn't always the Son none of it could have happened, because the bridge was incomplete.




Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


HE was Always "The Word of GOD" - in the O.T. He is LORD, GOD, The Almighty, the everlasting father, the prince of Peace and the one that "shall be" called the Son of the Father - future tense in the O.T..


Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, "the firstborn" of every creature: [post incarnation]

Col 1:16,17 [pre-incarnation] For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.



Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb,

I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF"



WHO is speaking here in Is 44:24? ... just for one sentence of the many that speak of One GOD, out of the Entire O.T..

Who did those that wrote these words, known as our Old Testament see this Creator GOD as?

Did they write or read in their Old Testament that a "son" WILL/Shall [future tense] Come?

Did they, the O.T. Saints that wrote the O.T. ever mention knowing a Son in their time or one that would come future tense, that would be born of a virgin?

Did they see any reference to any other GOD or LORD but One GOD & LORD?

Looking at the prophecies that they wrote, about the coming of this "righteous Servant", "Branch", "child is born", "son of David" etc - Did they see this child to be born as a Son, to be future tense?


Looking through the eyes of the true Saints and Prophets of the Old Testament - how and where did they see a Son?



btw - Innocent questions from those that only read what we know as the Old Testament.

 2012/1/17 11:34
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: """Looking through the eyes of the true Saints and Prophets of the Old Testament - how and where did they see a Son?"""

Also the Putting of this Son in the New Testament believer. The mystery hidden from all, until it is revealed to the saints, after the cross by Paul in all his epistles.

Col 1:26-27 Even the mystery that fulfills the Word of God, "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2012/1/17 14:59Profile









 Re:

"The form of God."

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men."

"A perfect example of Jehovah manifesting the Trinity."


"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
"And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!"

So, if the scriptures are truth, and declare Jesus as being in the Form of God, and indeed the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit is indeed God, then Who could have a Son, but the Father?......or was it all hazy?...and Divine ventriloquism was invoked???

"THE WORLD MADE BY JESUS AS GOD."

"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Born again by the Spirit by God.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

"The same was in the beginning with God."

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made!"...

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


It is abundantly clear that the scriptures declare God as a Spirit, the Holy Spirit, A Son, as God, and a Father, as God, and yet it also declares that this God, Yahweh, is ONE!.

This cannot be understood by means of the intellect, but must be received by Faith, and as we grow, we will intuitively grow to see Jesus in the Father, and yet by His side to intercede for us...while yet being One with Him..as Creator and Savior....and His Spirit as Lord also in limitless Power.

None of us have absorbed this totally, but to deny it as Truth is unbelief, and dangerous as I see it, and an open door to heresy.

"ONE UPON THE THRONE!"

"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and ONE sat on the throne.

"And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

"And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."

This is Yahweh as the Lord as Yahweh the Son Jesus God, Yahweh the Father God, and Yahweh the
Spirit God......Lord, Savior and Creator.






 2012/1/17 15:38









 Re:

Hebrews 7:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

GOD THE SON, AND YET A PRIEST

" But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens."
HEBREWS 7

 2012/1/17 15:45





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