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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is the denial of the eternal Sonship of Christ a damnable heresy?

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 Re:

And ... so ... was HE any less equally GOD on the Mount with Moses or the fire by night and the cloud by day or His Shekinah over the temple, or The Presence of GOD in the Temple, etc etc etc. as The Only True GOD calling Himself "I AM". Of course not.

Was He always the Son of man? made flesh? Not acting autonomously but in complete human-type dependence on The One we call Father?

Is Jesus not in Isaiah 9:6? He is NOT 'the everlasting Father? Do we call Him "The Mighty GOD" but Not "the everlasting Father".

Would border on Tri-theism if we can't get a handle on Is 9:6.


These are simple thoughts - and I don't believe that anyone that disagrees with what others that believe in INCARNATIONAL Sonship are misrepresenting the Son of God/ Son of Man and are damned - as you believe the Incarnational believers are damned - and the Scriptures posted - and not just by you - are not denied by anyone that just has the 'timing' of His being 'begotten as Son' - born in flesh - the Firstborn of many - the firstborn of many sons - the ONLY "begotten" of The Father believe.

Talk about straining over knats and sending folks to Hell over it.

I'm sure you never read the whole [if any] of the link that I've posted twice to this thread.

 2012/1/16 21:24









 Re:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Or again in 1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time.... The JW's use these verses to deny that Jesus is God because Jesus was seen. However when confronted with Gen 17:1 ...the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God....they have no answer.

God HAS been seen!!

It clears up when one reads further..

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

It was not God the Father that Abram saw, but it was still Almighty God, so who was it? Clearly the person of God the Father has been strictly removed from being able to be seen and I take it there will be no argument that no one has seen the person of God the Holy Spirit either, so all that one is left with is that Abram saw the second person of the Trinity, God the Son.

In the end verses used to attempt to disprove the person of the eternal Son of God, end up proving Him.

One God, three co-equal, co-eternal persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You cannot have it any other way!!


OJ

 2012/1/16 23:31
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Hey JiG,

Thanks for posting your beliefs. Question though...

You said, "He did not take on the form of human flesh until the Incarnation. He was the firstborn of many brethren/sons."

Who was it that called down saying, "This is My son, in whom I am well pleased?"

Did God call down to Himself? Why would He talk about Himself in the third person?

Thanks for your input. :-)


_________________
Christiaan

 2012/1/16 23:41Profile









 Re:


Joe quoted: "No man hath seen the Father at any time."




And Jesus also said to Philip:


Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also:

and from henceforth ye know him, and have 'seen' him.

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?

he that hath seen me hath 'seen the Father'; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?





Those are some of the verses that the Oneness folks get hung-up on. They do see The One True GOD side - but fail to read or understand the verses that refer to GOD's essence/nature as Tripartite.


That's what happens when the 'Entire' New Testament is not gone over with a fine tooth comb and what causes all the divisions between us.


I still sort of wish that no one had divided up The Word by Chpt and Verse numbers.


I'm not quoting Scripture to change anyone's mind as far as the "timing" issue - but only to raise Him up to WHOM He truly is. The Co-EQUALity and TriUnity of The tripartite Creator GOD.



Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them,
he it is that loveth me:
and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father,
and I will love him, and Will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him,
and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him.

 2012/1/16 23:47









 Re:

Quote:
Hey JiG,

Thanks for posting your beliefs. Question though...

You said, "He did not take on the form of human flesh until the Incarnation. He was the firstborn of many brethren/sons."

Who was it that called down saying, "This is My son, in whom I am well pleased?"

Did God call down to Himself? Why would He talk about Himself in the third person?

Thanks for your input. :-)




Same question I asked of the Oneness [Jesus Only] folks.
Also asked them, Who was Jesus praying to in John 17?
Spent much time proving the Triune nature of GOD on that thread I posted twice to this thread.

Bless you!

 2012/1/16 23:54
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

If you could humor me and repeat it, I would appreciate it.

I do not have time to look over all the thread again or other threads. We just had twin girls and it is about feeding time. After about an hour of feeding, burping, changing diapers, some light crying (by my wife and I), we are pooped out. :-)


_________________
Christiaan

 2012/1/16 23:56Profile









 Re:

Oh my, being stetched for time is right there, Brother. "Humor" you all you want, with all that you two have going on there :)
The thread was about 16 pages long - titled "Who is JESUS?" but this is the PDF version that I found. Couldn't find the whole of the thread in regular format.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic_pdf.php?topic_id=7346&forum=36




TWIN GIRLS! :o) Congratulations you two!!

"Children are a gift from GOD." You're Blessed!

 2012/1/17 0:06









 Re:

Quote:

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?

he that hath seen me hath 'seen the Father'; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?



I have combed it ma'am. That verse plainly teaches co-equality, not subservience, and neither that the Father specifically has been seen, but only that all the fulness of the Father is seen in the Son.

I know you believe it is a lesser authoritative portion of the Word, but you have to comb the Old Testament too.

Ex 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. (the Father)

Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
(the Son)

OJ

 2012/1/17 0:10









 Re:

Quote:
I know you believe it is a lesser authoritative portion of the Word, but you have to comb the Old Testament too.

Ex 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. (the Father)

Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
(the Son)

OJ



But Joe, when I asked Whom did Moses speak with and see His hind-parts, etc, etc between what went on, on the mountain between GOD and Moses - and you said "Jesus" - so now in vs 30 you've changed it to The Father.

I don't believe you are thinking co-EQUALity in the same way that I'm reading it.


But that doesn't send any of us to Hell because Much-much-much greater men than us have admitted that it's not that easy.

My view of the Tripartite nature of GOD - is that GOD created us in His Image - tripartite - body, soul and spirit and that's the closest that I can come for an analogy of what I picture of the trinity.

Our body, soul and spirit 'can' work independently of one another - UNLESS we're are totally 100% "led by His Spirit" that indwells ours ... as Jesus did - in order to be our only example of what walking in "childlike/son-like" obedience or "one with the Father and The Son"... His ultimate aim - "In His Image".


To be "One" - as He and The Father are One.




 2012/1/17 0:21









 Re:

Quote:
I don't believe you are thinking co-EQUALity in the same way that I'm reading it.


I can pretty well guarantee it.

Quote:
It's not that easy



Correction. It is impossible for these truths to be made real to anyone without the Spirit of God.

OJ

 2012/1/17 0:36





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