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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is the denial of the eternal Sonship of Christ a damnable heresy?

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 Re:

Quote:
It seems odd to me that a person could be regenerated never knowing or contemplating the "Eternal Sonship" and then come to hear that their salvation is counterfeit because this is a prerequisite for salvation.



As stated earlier "ignorance of" this truth is very different from "denial of" this truth.

There a lot of things that someone who comes to Christ will not know, however when confronted with these truths it is the work of the Holy Spirit to make these truths real to the person. If essential qualities of Christ are deviated from it is evidence that the Holy Spirit is not testifying to the person of Christ as Christ plainly stated He would do.

 John 15:26   But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me

  Romans 8:9   But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Simple math at that point.

OJ

ETA that is why this is such an important question.
 
 Matthew 22:42....What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?....

 2012/1/25 11:36









 Reposting my last post to this thread ....

by Jesus-is-GOD on 2012/1/21 17:46:10

This is not a question of whether the son of man was also The Son of GOD.

John 1 to me is my favorite chpt and describes Him to a tee.

Before this goes any further - I have been asking for the tenses of certain N.T. verses that are cross-referenced to the Old Testament prophecies about Jesus The Christ, Whom is also called GOD our Saviour, in the N.T..

What I have asked for also - is for an Old Testament Scholar that LOVES THE JEWS to expound on where they see "the Son" clearly mentioned in other than a future tense appearing, from the Old Testament.

I have a burden for the Jewish people that I know and some are also in my family.

I have to be able to explain that we do not believe in Three Gods because we are believing in The Son of GOD that GOD had Mary name "Jesus".

To truly love the Jewish people, would be a tremendous asset in anyone that would go verse by verse with me, through the Old Testament - all of which I have not posted here because of the motive for the original post and the misunderstanding of what I have been posting all alone.

By "love the Jewish people" - I mean the type of love that is like that of Corrie ten Boom or Art Katz, etc ... the kind of love that almost actually feels like physical pain and an even much greater love for the One True GOD, so that they've fine-tooth-combed His Word, Old and New Testaments, in order to fully know Him and be able to present His Messiah, the Son of David to 'anyone', of any belief.

Grieviously, I feel that I haven't found that here, as yet.

 2012/1/25 11:59









 Re: Reposting my last post to this thread ....

Quote:
I have to be able to explain that we do not believe in Three Gods because we are believing in The Son of GOD that GOD had Mary name "Jesus".



First off, you are in a position of "physician, heal thyself" on this one. Once that is done then you can expect power from on High to do the needed work.

Explanations of the persons of God only work for Deists. These things can only be revealed by th Holy Spirit.

BTW With the Jewish people, if Isaiah 53 doesn't get their attention not much will.

OJ

 2012/1/25 12:09









 Re:


Sigh. If you don't 'consider' any man here to be called Brother - I can't take anything you post seriously but from my heart, am feeling a deep & sincere sorrow for you to this day. Also for comparing yourself to the persecuted Church mentioned in The Voice of the Martyrs was a grievious statement as well.




To add to my last post - I've found the answer I've needed.

Thanks to those that posted out of Brotherly caring.

GOD Bless you indeed!

 2012/1/25 12:20









 Re:

Closing out 'again' from the original article.

"We cannot conceive how those who hold the doctrine that Christ is the Eternal Son of God and those who deny it can dwell together in union and peace."

OJ

 2012/1/25 12:27
lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re:

Joe please bear with me a little longer on this question for clarity reasons. One born again, as Christ describes salvation, who is ignorant of eternal Sonship, which I'm going to guess is the majority of those truly saved, is safe in their ignorance. However sooner or later their salvation will pivot on this issue. Given the fact they know Jesus as God, they would now be required, in order to keep their salvation, to also acknowledge Him as Son (not at incarnation) but before. So, holding to the eternal foreknowledge of God regarding the son, would not be enough unless Christ were seen as Son and not just God, before incarnation?.

I am trying to get my mind around sonship? Is it higher than coequal deity? I fear the leading of those who were brought to life from death being swayed to purposely choose to live in ignorance lest they approach a doctrine that they may somehow side wrongly. Especially since it was not mandatory at rebirth. Do you see where I'm coming from? The great doctrines and truths of Christ should only bring us to a greater worship of Him. I don't see where the issue of eternal sonship does this, given a person does not deny the all knowingness of God regarding sonship and given they believe in Christ the Son of God. Even if they don't see Him as Son before incarnation.

When you put the two together, could a person be disqualified who holds to Christ as eternal God but not as Son before incarnation?

 2012/1/25 21:55Profile









 Re:

"Brothertom, I would agree, it is the strongest and most concise verse for the Son before incarnation. It is not the questioning of the verse. It is the question of salvation, that is being hinged upon it, that concerns me. It seems odd to me that a person could be regenerated never knowing or contemplating the "Eternal Sonship" and then come to hear that their salvation is counterfeit because this is a prerequisite for salvation.

Not that one doesn't believe in the Son of God or Christ as eternal deity before incarnation, but that they must confess the Sonship, prior to the incarnation, to be saved. If it is prerequisite, then I would ask all who would draw this line in the sand, "Do you make a point of telling people you evangelize that they must accept this before God saves them?" ....Lylewise.....

Very good point, Lylewise. Thank you so much, for bringing this to light. Let me share my testimony.

I seemed to be saved by accident. I was born again by a mighty baptism of the Holy Spirit under the sun; outside, as I knelt on a street corner....reciting the 4 spiritual laws. Surrounding me, were 4 or 5 bright evangelists, ministering those 4 spiritual laws to me, and they laid hands on me.

I knew nothing, or believed almost nothing about "Eternal Sonship"...and maybe did not understand the basic foundations of the Lordship of Christ....Yet, I knew that I was a sinner, and that Jesus was right, and that I needed Him. I prayed, nearly by rote, and by surprise, He entered me!

As I knelt, I experienced a holy churning deep within, and the Baptism came, like rolling thunder, filling me over and over with love and oil. He is yet with me, and I know Him, as He lives within. This was 40 years ago.

The doctrine came much later, and the "fine points". I read the Word every day, devouring the Bible. Learning to love Him, and walk with Him,and this trumps doctrine I believe.

Yet, in this case, let us realize that folks like the Jehovah Witness have received another spirit; a demon spirit that mimics God, as a disciple of one of his.

It is good that we address such things, and do not shirk at Sovereignty and Choosing because they may not fit into our pet sacks. Remember Joseph.

 2012/1/25 23:33









 Re:

Lylewise

First of all, salvation cannot be lost, that is the everlasting part of everlasting life that a believer 'hath'. 

Secondly, nice straw man. But it is the same one used when a man makes a profession of Christ, goes to Bible school, becomes a preacher, has lots to say from the Bible, and later denies Christ. One group will say that he 'lost' everlasting life, but the reality is like King Saul, though he appeared to have sought it, and no matter how much he cried out, he never had it. 

The Holy Spirit testifies to the believer of the person of Christ, He does not testify of a different Christ to different believers. Though other things may differ, it is this work of the Holy Spirit that is present in every believer. 

Mormons take Jesus as God, by your definition they would appear saved. Modalists take Jesus as God (part-time), dualists and adoptionists take Jesus as God of NT only, subordinationists take Jesus as God just not co-equal with the Father, and on and on ....each one is lost in a damnable heresy. 

These heresies are actually gifts to the child of God to help him determine who his brethren actually are. If people want to be fruit inspectors, this is the ultimate inspection tool available, purely because it is objective, most other things that people look for are subjective. 

 1 Corinthians 11:19   For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 

OJ

 2012/1/26 0:07









 Re:

Just a few of the men that are either already in Hell or on their way ...


Ignatius (35-107) wrote of Christ: “In His pre-existent being ‘ingenerate’… His divine Sonship dates from the incarnation.”


No one has been able to address the quotes of Origen (185-254), being the first to bring "eternal generation" into the church.

Walter Martin - his quotes from the historical viewpoint are on pg 13 of this thread.


Bernard A Reeves - http://www.21st-century-reformation-of-trinity-doctrine.co.uk/List%20of%20papers.html


Wayne Jackson - http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1359-was-jesus-the-son-of-god-eternally



Luke 1:32 and 35


32 - He 'shall be' great, and 'shall be called' the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David


Albert Barnes - "Shall be called" - ""This is the same as to say he “shall be” the Son, etc.""



35 ..................... Therefore also that holy thing (or one) - 'shall be' called the Son of God -

Quote - Adam Clarke -

""We may plainly perceive here, that the angel does not give the appellation of Son of God to the Divine nature of Christ; but to that holy person or thing, το ἁγιον, which was to be born of the virgin, by the energy of the Holy Spirit. The Divine nature could not be born of the virgin; the human nature was born of her. The Divine nature had no beginning; it was God manifested in the flesh, 1Ti_3:16; it was that Word which being in the beginning (from eternity) with God, Joh_1:2, was afterwards made flesh, (became manifest in human nature), and tabernacled among us, Joh_1:14. Of this Divine nature the angel does not particularly speak here, but of the tabernacle or shrine which God was now preparing for it, viz. the holy thing that was to be born of the virgin. Two natures must ever be distinguished in Christ: the human nature, in reference to which he is the Son of God and inferior to him, Mar_13:32; Joh_5:19; Joh_14:28, and the Divine nature which was from eternity, and equal to God, Joh_1:1; Joh_10:30; Rom_9:5; Col_1:16-18. It is true, that to Jesus the Christ, as he appeared among men, every characteristic of the Divine nature is sometimes attributed, without appearing to make any distinction between the Divine and human natures; but is there any part of the Scriptures in which it is plainly said that the Divine nature of Jesus was the Son of God? Here, I trust, I may be permitted to say, with all due respect for those who differ from me, that the doctrine of the eternal Sonship of Christ is, in my opinion, anti-scriptural, and highly dangerous. This doctrine I reject for the following reasons: -
1st. I have not been able to find any express declaration in the Scriptures concerning it.

2dly. If Christ be the Son of God as to his Divine nature, then he cannot be eternal; for son implies a father; and father implies, in reference to son, precedency in time, if not in nature too. Father and son imply the idea of generation; and generation implies a time in which it was effected, and time also antecedent to such generation.

3dly. If Christ be the Son of God, as to his Divine nature, then the Father is of necessity prior, consequently superior to him.

4thly. Again, if this Divine nature were begotten of the Father, then it must be in time; i.e. there was a period in which it did not exist, and a period when it began to exist. This destroys the eternity of our blessed Lord, and robs him at once of his Godhead.

5thly. To say that he was begotten from all eternity, is, in my opinion, absurd; and the phrase eternal Son is a positive self-contradiction. Eternity is that which has had no beginning, nor stands in any reference to Time. Son supposes time, generation, and father; and time also antecedent to such generation. Therefore the conjunction of these two terms, Son and eternity is absolutely impossible, as they imply essentially different and opposite ideas.
The enemies of Christ’s Divinity have, in all ages, availed themselves of this incautious method of treating this subject, and on this ground, have ever had the advantage of the defenders of the Godhead of Christ. This doctrine of the eternal Sonship destroys the deity of Christ; now, if his deity be taken away, the whole Gospel scheme of redemption is ruined. On this ground, the atonement of Christ cannot have been of infinite merit, and consequently could not purchase pardon for the offenses of mankind, nor give any right to, or possession of, an eternal glory. The very use of this phrase is both absurd and dangerous; therefore let all those who value Jesus and their salvation abide by the Scriptures. This doctrine of the eternal Sonship, as it has been lately explained in many a pamphlet, and many a paper in magazines, I must and do consider as an awful heresy, and mere sheer Arianism; which, in many cases, has terminated in Socinianism, and that in Deism. From such heterodoxies, and their abetters, may God save his Church! Amen!"" [end quote]





Thank you for bringing this topic up to me. I had never searched it out on the Internet until this thread - only from the Scriptures alone, for the last 7 yrs.





Shalom ~ Jesus 'Is' GOD!

 2012/1/26 4:18
lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re:

Sister Ann, do you have another source for the Wayne Jackson article. The site seems to be down?

 2012/1/26 11:05Profile





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