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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is the denial of the eternal Sonship of Christ a damnable heresy?

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davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

JIG on page 1 of this thread, you reply to Old Joe

"I'll stay in the company of those you deem not Brethren and maybe one of those Brothers will prove out pre-conception Sonship via Scripture only, as I've asked for clarification on this controversy between scholars because I am still open to The Truth - but not this way."

Since then, not only he but other brothers have, as you asked provided scriptures showing that Christ is, always was, and always will be the eternal Son of God. He does not change.

You said above that you were still open to the Truth, but when the Truth is stated clearly, you continually oppose.

Believers know by the Holy Ghost and the Word of God that the Son of His Love was always in the bosom of the Father, but for love of us, the Father sent Him, His beloved Son into the world. He that believes on This Son has everlasting life.

On page 13, You quote Old Joe

"To deny the eternal sonship of Christ is to deny the Son, period.", and reply

THIS IS NOT TRUE and coming from the man that said that he cannot call or consider any man here "Brother" - I have to consider the source and have turned this over to those that are Brothers and that do 'love' in sincerity, so please see that you're not the final authority, for once.


Are you still open to Truth? Have you not considered that perhaps you are wrong, and in rejecting the eternality of the Son, and continualy opposing, you are unwise!

David


_________________
david

 2012/1/21 17:16Profile









 Re:


Hello David.

I haven't been 'helped' by the way in which this was presented and then discussed.
I do have a Pastor and I do have many other Brothers that care about me and that do have a more scholarly handle on His Word and the verses I've presented that I see in the O.T. - besides, His Spirit of Truth, so I'm in Good hands.

Thank you for any concern that you may have.

 2012/1/21 19:13
JB1968
Member



Joined: 2009/8/31
Posts: 416
Ohio USA

 Re:

To answer the original question is yes. I did not take the time to read the lengthy replies, but the Bible is clear on the subject.


_________________
James

 2012/1/21 20:31Profile









 Re:

This is not a question of whether the son of man was also The Son of GOD.

John 1 to me is my favorite chpt and describes Him to a tee.

Before this goes any further - I have been asking for the tenses of certain N.T. verses that are cross-referenced to the Old Testament prophecies about Jesus The Christ, Whom is also called GOD our Saviour, in the N.T..

What I have asked for also - is for an Old Testament Scholar that LOVES THE JEWS to expound on where they see "the Son" clearly mentioned in other than a future tense appearing, from the Old Testament.

I have a burden for the Jewish people that I know and some are also in my family.

I have to be able to explain that we do not believe in Three Gods because we are believing in The Son of GOD that GOD had Mary name "Jesus".

To truly love the Jewish people, would be a tremendous asset in anyone that would go verse by verse with me, through the Old Testament - all of which I have not posted here because of the motive for the original post and the misunderstanding of what I have been posting all alone.

By "love the Jewish people" - I mean the type of love that is like that of Corrie ten Boom or Art Katz, etc ... the kind of love that almost actually feels like physical pain and an even much greater love for the One True GOD, so that they've fine-tooth-combed His Word, Old and New Testaments, in order to fully know Him and be able to present His Messiah, the Son of David to 'anyone', of any belief.

Grieviously, I feel that I haven't found that here, as yet.

 2012/1/21 20:46
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Ephesians 3:14-21 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by ((((Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.)))) Amen.

If Jesus Christ is the Son of God that He is birthed in every believer and because of Him we are headed to the Fathers house and eternally live with God, Jesus Christ in us is not going to be taken out of us when Jesus turns His Sonship over to His Father, His Body the Church, He will still be the only begotten Son of God and God will be all in all. Our Father and our born again sonship and the Holy Spirit in Us forever, certainly making us eternal son's of God by the Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ who is eternal also. Godly eternal Seed must beget eternal life. God is One and always has been One by having no beginning or no end, we have a beginning with God when the plan of God was to put His Son, The Nature of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in us when the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

Then given to Paul the Gospel of the "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", this is eternal life in Him, for that to be He must be eternal in us forever just like the Holy Spirit was with us and now in us forever, the Plan of God, If this does not make Jesus Christ the eternal Son of God the bible is not Gods word.

I studied under Walter Martin for many years and went to his Kingdom of the Cults Seminars many times and have many of His other books and I never heard Walter say anything about Jesus Christ not being eternal unless it was an apologetic to prove He Is the Eternal Son of God in eternity past and eternity future which is beyoud my comprehension, yet I believe God is Eternal always has been and always will be eternal, that includes our God and Savior Jesus Christ and His eternal Spirit the Two being given to the Born Again sons of God.

Walter Martin went home to be with the Lord in 1989, Walter was a very good teacher, filled with the Holy Spirit and the knowledge that Jesus Christ was his whole life and great apologetist of the Cult Kingdoms.

In Christ the eternal Son of God by The Father through the Holy Spirit:

Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2012/1/23 0:36Profile
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

This Day have I begotten thee

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 A sk of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.


Verse 7 of this psalm is proving troublesome to some who say that the son is to be begotten at a certain moment in time ie "this day". We should ask the question "which day is being refered to here?"


Some have said it refers to Jesus' incarnation, but as has been said already, His birth as a man was when He became Son of Man, not Son of God; (although the scriptures clearly show that he is eternal son of man aswell "the son of man who IS in heaven" John 3;13)


Art Katz' first sermon on "Sonship", refered to in this thread (page 12) by "a-servant" says of the incarnation:

"Jesus was the Son of God in a positional way by birth, but something was required in a moment of time that
made it actual, namely, a divine declaration or decree. Jesus had to come to the place where the Father could say:
I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, “ Thou art My Son, today I have begotten Thee.” (Psalm 2:7).

He goes on to say that the moment in time for Jesus , the "this day" is His resurection from the dead, and quotes Rom 1 , speaking of the gospel:

“ Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: "

He does not clarify what he means by "positional sonship", but clearly agrees that He was Son of God (although in a "positional"?? way) before resurrection.

Katz's "resurrection sonship" teaching is better than "incarnational sonship" and is confirmed by the fact that in Acts, the apostles preach from psalm 2 v7 to show that God had before promised that He would raise up Christ and call Him his Son.

But the two Romans verses are really speaking of the twofold nature of Christ; the Son of man (of the seed of David according to the flesh)and the Son of God (declared to be the Son of God with power), both natures comong together in one glorious man; the man Christ Jesus.

And even before His resurrection, Jesus told Mary "I am the Resurrection and the Life"; He was the son of God with power through all His time here, and in eternity past. His own resurrection was the public manifestation to the world and to the heavens of His power and authority as Son of God.

Neither incarnational, nor resurrection sonship disprove the eternal Sonship of Christ Jesus. They are, neither of them, in the full sense, the "this day" which is being spoken of in the psalm.

It has been said so many times that context is the key. The psalm is clearly speaking of a future day, not the incarnation day or the resurrection day, but a day, when, the heathen are raging against Jehovah and His Christ. A day when the kings of the earth are gathered in councel together. A day when God shall laugh, and Christ shall have them in derision. A day when Christ will speak to them in wrath, and vex them. A day when He will break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potters vessel. This is not the Christ of the gospel age, of the church age.

It is speaking clearly of the day of the Lord, the future day when Christ will be set as king on the holy hill of Zion. A day when He will ask, and the heathen and the uttermost parts of the earth will be given to Christ as His rightful inheritance as Son of God and as Son of Man. In John 17.9, He did not pray/ask for the world, but for us.

This is so clearly the Day this psalm is speaking of. The day when the Son of the Father's love will be clearly manifested, and the earth will be filled with the knowlege of the glory of the Lord.

David


_________________
david

 2012/1/23 5:53Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Sorry to repost this but in haste I made to many mistakes.

Edited for clarity and spelling;

Ephesians 3:14-21 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by ((((Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.)))) Amen.

If Jesus Christ is the Son of God that He is birthed in every believer and because of Him we are headed to the Fathers house and eternally live with God, Jesus Christ in us is not going to be taken out of us when Jesus turns His Sonship over to His Father, His Body the Church, He will still be the only begotten Son of God and God will be all in all. Our Father and our born again sonship and the Holy Spirit in Us forever, certainly making us eternal son's of God by the Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ who is eternal also. Godly eternal Seed must beget eternal life. God is One and always has been One by having no beginning or no end, we have a beginning with God when the plan of God was to put His Son, The Nature of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in us when the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

Then given to Paul the Gospel of the "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", this is eternal life in Him, for that to be He must be eternal in us forever just like the Holy Spirit was with us and now in us forever, the Plan of God, If this does not make Jesus Christ the eternal Son of God the bible is not Gods word.

I studied under Walter Martin for many years and went to his Kingdom of the Cults Seminars many times and have many of His other books and I never heard Walter say anything about Jesus Christ not being eternal unless it was an apologetic to prove He Is the Eternal Son of God in eternity past and eternity future which is beyoud my comprehension, yet I believe God is Eternal always has been and always will be eternal, that includes our God and Savior Jesus Christ and God's eternal Holy Spirit the Two being given to the Born Again sons of God. Jesus the Life, the Holy Spirit the Teacher of His life in us.

Walter Martin went home to be with the Lord in 1989, Walter was a very good teacher, filled with the Holy Spirit and the knowledge that Jesus Christ was his whole life and great apologist of the Cult Kingdoms.

In Christ the eternal Son of God by The Father through the Holy Spirit:

Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2012/1/23 21:00Profile
lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re: Is the denial of the eternal Sonship of Christ a damnable heresy?

Joe, I do thank you for this post. It has caused me to think of that which I never concerned myself with before. I have been a Christian for five years, and did not realize that my salvation was in jeopardy based on my position in acknowledging the timing of a name of Christ.

So that I can be be more clear on this, I would like to identify a believer as I feel scripture identifies them, so that I may understand how they look heretical by virture of what is being held up in this post.

A beiiever:

Born again
Slave to Christ
Seperated from the world while bearing with it
Hating the flesh that interferes with their communion with God
Loves the bretheren
Has a love for Christ, that if one could really inspect, would make their other
relationships look like hate.
Lives for the time they spend with God.
See a totally different world and it's workings than nonbelievers
Has a different set of values than non believers.
Has lost their home in this world. and realizes that, one day they will get to go home.
Realizes the riches of this world mean nothing, but the riches of Christ mean everything.
Sees people through gifted eyes given them, that allow them to see past the hate of their enemies, and love them (motivated by the love that God loves them)
Consider that they are mere caretakers of their children and that they truly belong to God.
Their pearl is Christ

and

Do not deny the eternal purpose
Jesus is God (so no need to say he has always been God), Son of God, The Word of God, Everlasting Father, The Rock.....
The trinity is God co-equal
Only through Christ is salvation, for there is no other God.


So I'm still trying to grasp why salvation would hinge one's view of The Son at incarnation when if one does not deny that Christ is the eternal I am, Fully God before and after birth, the promised one of scripture? Divinity is not in question nor under assault as I can gather. There is no denial of The eternal knowledge of Christ's sonship. Christ is fully God in heaven. There is no denial of the Eternal divinity of the one co-equal God. It still seems to me that this is about the timing of a name (title) and that that title, in light of the others that are received, do not show this cause for denial of who Christ is past or present. Even the scriptures quoted can speak to the foreknowledge of sonship but if they didn't I cannot see how that denies God as Lord and Savior. By foreknowledge He is our eternal Savior is he not?

If I get to heaven, I do not see myself referring to Jesus as the Son of God. I would think I would call Him the Lamb, or God but who can say? Most likely, the saints that stand in His presence, will be speechless for the first part of eternity, say a quadrillion years or so before they can utter with the angels Holy, Holy, Holy.



 2012/1/24 7:39Profile









 Re:



This scripture below, proves both the Eternal Sonship, and the manifest Son of Man within the Incarnation, Crucifiction, and Resurrection are indeed one and the same.
The understanding of this is at the core of Apostolic faith.

Hebrews 1
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

 2012/1/24 11:25
lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re:

Brothertom, I would agree, it is the strongest and most concise verse for the Son before incarnation. It is not the questioning of the verse. It is the question of salvation, that is being hinged upon it, that concerns me. It seems odd to me that a person could be regenerated never knowing or contemplating the "Eternal Sonship" and then come to hear that their salvation is counterfeit because this is a prerequisite for salvation. Not that one doesn't believe in the Son of God or Christ as eternal deity before incarnation, but that they must confess the Sonship, prior to the incarnation, to be saved. If it is prerequisite, then I would ask all who would draw this line in the sand, "Do you make a point of telling people you evangilize that they must accept this before God saves them?"

 2012/1/25 8:17Profile





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