SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
See Opportunities to Serve with SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The law - The Gospel

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 Next Page )
PosterThread
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

ArtB wrote: "The LAWS of Moses does not forbid lying. It forbids false testimony in a Court of Law where penalties are an issue. The ancient Jewish Midrash contains Jewish teachings on the proper times and situations when it is proper and righteous to tell a lie, or lies, or mislead."

That's seeing only the letter of the 9th Commandment. It goes further than that. Here are just a few examples:

"You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man."(Ps.5:6)

"Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal truthfully are His delight."(Prov.12:22)

Again, our Lord came to point out and expound on the spirit of the moral Law, and it is still binding on Christians today.

Also, the teachings and commands of both Christ and Paul are applicable to Christians today. They do not contradict one another. We cannot pit one against the other, for that is serious error. And we cannot simply brush off and do away with all the moral commands from the O.T.. We must take and heed the whole counsel of God for what it is.


_________________
Oracio

 2012/1/19 12:41Profile









 Re:

Dear ArtB --- Brother, I worship the Messiah not Paul

On his way to the cross to be crucified for you and I to live; he said ""IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" (John 14:15)
I do love him so that's exactly what I'm going do.

When the Savior ascended to heaven and took his seat next to the most high, he sent us his last revelation through John.
In the very last book of your bible after John had been shown everything concerning the end times, Our Savior sent the same message again
for the last time, so there will be no confussion when he returns, Revelation 22:14

"BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life."

You can do whatever you want brother, that's your choice. Don't teach others to make the same mistake.

Quote:
In all His public speeches, Jesus addressed them only to Jews, and He taught them to keep the Mosaic Laws



So according to your logic only the Jews will inherit the kingdom right?

 2012/1/19 12:53
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1908


 Re: ArtB

Quote:

1. Jesus never preached to gentiles prior to His Crucifixion. Jesus said the gentiles were like dogs unworthy of the bread for His children Israel.



He did not preach to Gentiles because a Covenant was not made with Gentiles until the Death of Jesus and Not because his teachings are not applicable to Gentiles. But to Jews God already made a covenant, so Jesus preached to them the Good news of Kingdom of God.
Secondly if Jesus has seriously called the Gentile women Dog then he has sinned. He was testing her faith to see whether she had the faith needed to get the healing that she was seeking. This he did in all his miracles. He healed a centurion's slave without any rebuke or dog calling (as per your argument).
The Problem with you is, you take one scripture and try to make a theology out of it. Compare it with other scriptures, like how Jesus did when Satan quoted a scripture to tempt Jesus (Luke 4), he balanced the arguments by quoting another scripture. If he had your attitude then he would have fallen to the tricks of Satan.

Quote:

2. Jesus was under the Mosaic Law until His death on the cross. Had Jesus preached the New covenant prior to His death, He would have violated the Mosaic Covenant, making Him a sinner.



One part of this is true, Jesus lived according to Mosaic law. But his teaching is not Old Covenant. He did not sin by teaching New Covenant. He told in Sermon on Mount that what he is teaching will not abolish the law but strengthen it. Which means what he is teaching is actually not law, but something else that strengthens the law. This is the spirit of Law.
Jesus told Nicodemus that unless you are born again you will not enter the kingdom of God (John 3). Is this Old Covenant? if it was then Nicodemus would have understood it immediately as he was a teacher of it.
I can show you all the teachings of Jesus and show you how it is different from OC.
Jesus was put to death for claiming that he was Son of God and not for teaching something wrong.

Quote:

3. In all His public speeches, Jesus addressed them only to Jews, and He taught them to keep the Mosaic Laws. That is why He said what is written in Matthew 19:17 and John 14:25.



Since your point 2 is proved wrong, point 3 is also wrong. Also Matthew 19:17 is not Old Covenant and it is only your assumption. If it is OC then what is John 3:3? John 3:3 is obviously NC teaching. I call classify a part of Jesus teaching as OC and another part as NC is childish and it only shows lack of maturity.

I don't have time to discuss rest of your bullets, misunderstanding Paul is fine compared to misunderstanding the teachings of Jesus. First read the 4 Gospels seeking God to show you revelation.


_________________
Sreeram

 2012/1/19 14:27Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Acts 28:28 Be it known that the salvation of God is sent to the Gentiles, They will hear it.

This was one of the last times Paul spoke to the Jews, speaking from the Old Testament and the Gospel of the New Testament concerning Jesus Christ. These Jews wanted to know what Paul had to say concerning, what they called a sect, which everywhere was spoken against.

Some believed and some did not. That is when Paul envoked the salvation of God be sent to the Gentiles.

To this day the nation of Israel does not believe in the salvation of God, the Gospel, which Paul declares, "My Gospel". This Gospel which changed the whole application to salvation. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". John 3:16 etc. Now that we gentiles hear the Gospel of Paul, which is the mystery revealed to the saints, which is the new birth, which is "Christ in you the hope of glory". Now Grace gives us all that is necessary for salvation and keeping it, which God in His perfect plan by the Lamb slain before the very foundation of the world, put His Own Son, the Spirit of Christ in the believer. "Born Again". Let us live in that life which we now have. Knowing that our heart is not waxed gross, but has been filled with the Life of Jesus Christ our only life, and our eyes open to see Him and our ears to Hear Him, that we are converted and understand with our hearts, that we are healed by His Stripes and given life by His Life that is now in us.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2012/1/19 17:58Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

Oracio wrote:

Quote:
Again, not so. These are just a few of multitudes of N.T. scriptures where Paul gives "commandments", not just exhortations and encouragements, from the Lord:

"Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband."(1Cor.7:10)[



Oracio, you are using the KJV.

In the NASU, here is how that verse is translated:

Even in the KJV, this alleged ‘commandment’ is not a commandment from the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law allowed a Husband to divorce his wife.

1 Co 7:10 (NASU)
10 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband 11(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

The Greek word being translated into English is ‘parangello’. KJV translated ‘parangello’ to mean ‘commandment’. The NASU translates ‘parangello’ I Cor 7:1 as ‘gave instructions’. Which is correct. Here is what the greek word ‘paragello’ actually translates in English:

NT:3853 parangello (par-ang-gel'-lo) : NT:3853 – TO TRANSMIT A MESSAGE.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Parangello does not mean command nor does it mean commandment.

"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters." (1Cor.7:19)

Circumcision is a Commandment of the Mosaic Law. Paul informs us that it is not a Law of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. So Paul is clearly describing the Law of the New Covenant we have in Jesus Christ, and is not endorsing the Mosaic Law, which Paul stated that the Mosaic Law was useless and worthless in that it could never save anyone. That what the LAW could not do, Jesus did on our behalf. Through Jesus blood sacrifice we are saved for all time for we who accepted Jesus blood as washing away for all time. The Bible declares that No Human (except Jesus) is sinless, and there is no other merciful sacrifice for the removal of Sin other than Jesus blood shed on the cross.



Oracio wrote:

Quote:
"If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord."(1Cor14:37)



“Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise"(Eph.6:2)


‘commandment’ is the Greek word ‘entole’: injunction, an authoritative injunction,. Therefore ‘commandment’ is a legitimate translation of ‘entole’ in both bible verses..

Oracio wrote:

Quote:
”Notice that the last one from Ephesians is a direct quote of the 5th Commandment, and that Paul applies that commandment to Christians. And there are many other such examples which I have posted and which you seem to be ignoring or avoiding. Friend, don't tell believers they are not obligated to obey God's moral laws.”



True, but Paul is not telling anyone to return to keeping the Mosaic Law, Paul merely wrote a truism that was listed in the Mosaic Law. Salvation is a gift from God to us through the finished work of His only begotten Son on the cross. If we put ourselves back under the Mosaic Law, we nullify God’s gift and salvation through His only begotten Son, our Lord, Jesus.


Oracio wrote:
Quote:
“Again, we are not under any obligation to obey any ceremonial or civil laws of the Old Covenant. But we are clearly bound by the Lord as His servants to obey His moral laws.”



And how long have you been keeping all the moral laws?

And you are bound to keep the moral laws by what?

Is it possible to sin all your life, and also keep the moral laws?

Consider this: 1 Jn 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. NASU

John, the Apostle Jesus loved, wrote that we will never stop sinning as long as we live. I know I have. Like, I do not like to sin, it embarrasses me. I want to be perfect. But, as many here already know, I am far from being perfect. On the other hand, I am humbled by my sins, and for this very reason I am so much more dependent on, and trusting in God, and not on my self and my will and ability. I’m so glad to know that when I confess my sins, that God is faithful to forgive me, and that HE WILL CLEANSE ME FROM ALL UNRIGHTOESNESS. And He did so through His son, The Lamb of God, whose blood has washed away all my sins - past, present, and future.

The Law sets the mind on the flesh, and it planted seeds in my flesh that caused me to sin more and more, and the more and more I tried not to not sin, the more sinful and weak I became, until I cried out to Him and confessed to God that I can not stop sinning, for my mind was set on sin continually. And I threw myself on His mercy. And I stopped trying to stop sinning, I told Him I can’t stop, and I kept myself before God and called upon Him to fulfill 1 Jn 1:5-10. And today, I have a great fellowship with God, a true love relationship, even though I still sin but it’s nothing as like as before. I do confess my known sins to Him, knowing that He loves me and that He will cleanses me from all righteousness. I believe God. He is my true love, He has my heart, Our love binds us.

If I were to use words to say what my relationship is with God, I would use these words from a 1946 song.

When He takes me in His arms
He speaks to me so low
I see my life en rose

He tells me words of love,
Every Day these words,
And this does something to me.

He has entered my heart,
With a happiness,
Of which I know the cause,

It’s Him for me, and me for Him, in my life,
He tells me this, everyday, of my life,

And these things become apparent,
Then I sense in me,
my beating heart.

I thought that love was just a word
They sang about in songs I heard
It took your death to reveal
That I was wrong and love is real


And again, we are not saved nor do we keep our salvation by keeping God's moral laws, but only by God's grace(unmerited favor), it is His grace and the indwelling Holy Spirit that saves us and also changes us from the inside out, giving us new desires that naturally conforms our nature God's by which we will naturally keep His moral commandments simply because we find it a great pleasure to do so.

The Mosaic Law sets our minds on sin and sets us off on tangents away from God.

The Laws of Jesus Christ draws us to God. His commandments are no burden, but a true gift from God to us, and true fellowship with God.

1. The Royal Law of Love. Love God with all your heart, mind and soul, and your neighbor as yourself. And we are to be that neighbor to others.

2. The Law of Liberty. Mercy Triumphs over Judgement. Measure for Measure for as you measure others, so will you be measured, the standards by which we each Judge others, so shall we be judged. Forgive and you will be forgiven, pardon and you will be pardoned.

3. The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus: Read Romans Chapter 8, which is the ultimate conclusion of the previous chapters of Paul's long argument on the state of salvation of Christians.

Quite often when Paul references 'Commandments' He is referring to these Commandments of Jesus Christ, and not the commandments God gave Moses.


_________________
Arthur Biele

 2012/1/20 11:02Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

Oracio on 2012/1/19 9:41:06 wrote:

Quote:
ArtB wrote: "The LAWS of Moses does not forbid lying. It forbids false testimony in a Court of Law where penalties are an issue. The ancient Jewish Midrash contains Jewish teachings on the proper times and situations when it is proper and righteous to tell a lie, or lies, or mislead."

That's seeing only the letter of the 9th Commandment. It goes further than that. Here are just a few examples:

"You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man."(Ps.5:6)

"Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal truthfully are His delight."(Prov.12:22)



Scenario:

Oracio, in the goodness of your heart, you decide to follow your neighbor choice to hide a Jewish family, in his home. In order to protect them from the Nazis, and you decide this is good and you take in a Jewish family too.

You're in town buying a few necessities, when two SS Nazis walk up to you and ask you if you know of any homes that are hiding Jews in their home.

Is your answer really going to be: "Oh darn, I was hoping you wouldn't ask me that. Yes, there are Jews in my home and at my next door neighbors house." and you say this because: "Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal truthfully are His delight."

Now, will you concede that what I wrote has merit, namely:

"The ancient Jewish Midrash contains Jewish teachings on the proper times and situations when it is proper and righteous to tell a lie, or lies, or mislead, in some situations."

Now I do not believe you would do that, but then, you would be agreeing that there are occasions when boldly lying is a good moral choice.


_________________
Arthur Biele

 2012/1/20 13:05Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

ArtB, thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail to my posts. For the most part I see we are in much agreement. On some things we will have to agree to disagree at this time brother. The Lord bless you and make His face to shine upon you.
In Christ,
Oracio


_________________
Oracio

 2012/1/20 13:52Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:


Quote:
If we put ourselves back under the Mosaic Law, we nullify God’s gift


Likewise, the reverse is true.

Quote:
Circumcision is a Commandment of the Mosaic Law. Paul informs us that it is not a Law of the New Covenant



Likewise the reverse is true.
Even though Paul rebuked the “Judaizers” for demanding circumcision, he required it of Timothy - for the sake of some Jews. Obviously the difference was purpose: In the one case it violated the spirit of the law, and in the other it supported the spirit of the law. In one instance it was legalistic righteousness; in the other love.

As I ponder this whole topic of law vs grace/gospel/spirit, I am seeing that the issue is not the law per se, but one’s approach to it. One can have an OC approach to the NT – and then NT is approached as a legal code (Did you catch that in my testimony earlier? I was hoping someone would.) Martin Lloyd –Jones addresses that problem in his commentary on the Sermon on the Mount. He says that it is not a list of instructions as much as a portrayal of a person who is a true Christian. The Sermon on the Mount can never be approached as a list of rules, or applied to unbelievers.

I was once reminded that the Bible is not a comprehensive book of rules for living for all time and cultures. Even for ancient Israel, the Mosaic Law didn’t touch on everything going on in their lives. It was representational. Furthermore, we see laws (instructions) in scripture that are archaic today. They no longer apply because culture changed. For example today prostitutes don’t distinguish themselves by having short hair. Today we observe many laws which could never have been written in scripture. Imagine Paul’s readers trying to understand instructions regarding praise and worship wars, the use of pharmaceuticals, or some contemporary issue. Yet no instruction in scripture can be overlooked because they all support a principle which we do wish to retain.

Does that make sense?


Quote:
you would be agreeing that there are occasions when boldly lying is a good moral choice.


Such an action may indeed be a fulfillment of the greatest commandment. During WW2, avoiding a lie about a Jew's presence hidden in your home could not only facilitate his death, you could also be enabling a murderer to commit his crime. Helping anyone commit sin, even by passive silence, is never an act of love!

We can see the folly of observing laws without any sense of consciousness to the over-all law of love. So, why would we insist on keeping the letter. This was a serious issue during WW2. My grandfather who hid Jews in the underground movement found himself running against those who believed one must never tell a lie – regardless of the circumstance. This issue divided the church when unity could have helped save so many more Jews. And look how many times even today damage results when the Great Commandment is eclipsed by disputes over smaller laws .


PS Hope you didn’t mind me butting in here – after I’ve slipped away for a while. This is a worthy subject to battle over. I’m still working on it in my own mind.

God bless you all,


Diane


_________________
Diane

 2012/1/20 18:53Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Righteousness is obtained by faith. The 10 commandments and their true meaning have been written on our hearts where all sin comes from. Our hearts.

Out of the good treasure or evil treasure of the heart we bring either one.

The outward commandments have become internalized within, written on the heart as well as all the commandments of God in Christ Jesus. We are now led by the Spirit who fully agrees with the Word. Even the Sabbath, which has become Christ, is now Christ within.

Pilgrim

 2012/1/20 19:24Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re: The Joyful Sound

There have been some "Christians" that have had a difficult time with Brother Andrew who would "deceive" nations by secretly smuggling in Bibles. This is done by many today and they smuggle in many other useful things, too, while smuggling out lives if they can. Of course, they are breaking many laws of the governments of this world.

The Law of Liberty or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is the highest law that trumps all of men's laws and the Holy Spirit never leads God's children to sin.

The circumcision of the heart, is an operation of the Spirit and not the letter.

Jesus showed us all the commandments of God are written on our hearts and we are now led by the Spirit who always agrees with the Word as the Holy Spirit interprets it fo us. That is why Jesus could travel and work on the Sabbath (Heal) and allow His disciples to work (travel and pick corn).

Psa 89:14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
Psa 89:15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.

Many do not know the "joyful sound" of liberty in Christ.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Blessed is the people that know the JOYFUL SOUND!

Pilgrim

 2012/1/20 19:43Profile





©2002-2021 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy