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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The law - The Gospel

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ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

Rickyyearle, Thanks for posting this url, it is spot on about the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/whatisgospel.html


_________________
Arthur Biele

 2012/1/17 18:28Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Hey there Oracio,

Yeah, maybe that was a bad example.

There are many others inwards sins that are good and I think you know what I am talking about.

Lust, smugness, bias, pride, respecter of persons, any kind of lack of love towards our neighbor.

Not helping an injured person on the Sabbath because you can't work according to the letter.

I think you get the idea but thanks for the correction on covetousness, although many would say that "I did not VERBALLY covet anything (but in their heart they are doing it). Again the legality of the letter.

Pilgrim

 2012/1/17 18:41Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Braking one little part of the Law, also breaks the big part, that being saying as Israel did, we will keep the whole Law, which they never did.


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Phillip

 2012/1/17 19:28Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
The law does not identify sins of the inward heart of man.



I have found this to be profoundly true for me! Here’s my own story:

I grew up in the Christian Reformed Church and was raised with an acute sense of Biblical law. In my formative years I carefully aimed to please my authority figures, because to me that was synonymous with pleasing God. It had benefits: It kept life in order and gave me a sense of belonging. Approvals were signals to me that I was keeping God’s laws. I carefully avoided anything that would cause me disapproval – from man and God – as I understood the law.

Then as a teen, at a youth retreat, I heard that I needed to “ask Jesus into my heart”. I had never heard about that, but now I was eager to do that. The preaching convinced me that this procedure would please God. I decided to comply. And not wanting to be the only one who did not have a salvation date, I prayed aloud in my cabin of girls, saying: “Jesus come into my heart and forgive me for my sins.” I meant it. Yet I distinctly remember thinking to myself, ‘But I can’t think of any sins”. As far as I knew I was obeying God’s laws. I had nothing to forgive.

God honored my fragile imperfect offering of myself. Over time he would awaken my conscience to countless violations of the law - through a process of spiritual awakening. I had to discover who I was underneath the layers and layers of facades. I came to see that on an unconscious level I violated the first commandment. I could not love God with all my heart, because much of my heart was locked away – even from my own awareness. There was much darkness yet to be brought into the light.

The most significant period of Holy Spirit conviction occurred in my mid 30’s. By that time, I had been a Baptist for many years, and I was well acquainted with Biblical law. I had been exemplary Christian …… until life crashed through a complicated intertwining of family illnesses, a personal debilitating illness, and other crisis - all at once. Then I discovered a level of sin that I could not see before. My greatest sin was self-reliance. I had been depending on my self to be a Christian. When everything about myself came crashing down – my strength - emotional, physical, religious, cognitive capacities, and so forth, I was left naked in God’s presence. I could merely cry for mercy. After that, for a long, long, long period of time, the Spirit would expose ever–deepening layers of sin. They were too many to write in a book. At times God seemed to abandon me. But always before I would sink into utter hopelessness over my sin, he would come along and breathe his grace into me. And then I would say, Oh God, thank you, it was all worth it!

Only God’s Spirit knows the deepest recesses of our hearts – our conscience, the values that drive us, our false trusts. The Bible is not a conclusive, comprehensive diagnostic manual for the heart. If it was, none of us would be able to carry it. Besides, we would not make the connection with our own heart anyway. (It’s always the other guy, right?) We still need the Spirit.

The Bible points to the one who exposes sin and cleanses us: God – Father, Son, and Spirit. It is the process of death in Christ’s baptism – and resurrection in his life.



Diane


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Diane

 2012/1/17 19:30Profile
pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Thank you very much for sharing a little of your story, Diane. It illustrates what the letter could never do and will never be able to do.

Blessings to you,
Pilgrim

 2012/1/17 19:36Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Thank you Pilgrim. My own story reminds me of the need to exercise mercy towards others. God works in their lives in his timing - not ours.

We don't make very good surgeons when it comes to extracting other people's sins. On the other hand, we may praise what looks very righteous- yet may have sin at its root.

God can manage people's spiritual condition far better than we can. In the mean time, our calling is to exercise the law of love.

What is love?

Diane


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Diane

 2012/1/17 19:43Profile
ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

Oracio. you took Romans 7:7 totally out of its' context. Allow me to return the context to that verse that the Apostle Paul intended in His long argument.

Ro 7:1-8:11

Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14 The Conflict of Two Natures


For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


Romans 8

8:1 Deliverance from Bondage


Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
NASU

Paul says in Romans chapter 7

7:3 For what the Law could not do, WEAK AS IT WAS through the flesh, GOD DID: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

What the Mosaic Law could not do, GOD DID, by sending Jesus, His only begotten Son, The Lamb of God, as an offering of sin. HE didn't condemn the sinners, God condemned sin in the flesh.

7:4 Therefore, my brethren, YOU WERE ALSO WERE MADE TO DIE TO THE LAW THROUGH THE BODY OF CHRIST, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

"WERE MADE TO DIE TO THE LAW THROUGH THE BODY OF CHRIST"

Are you dead to the LAW, being part of the body of Christ, Oracio? Or are you still living by The LAW?

7:5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

The LAW aroused our sinful passions, that is what the LAW actually did, by working in our flesh, thereby working in in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

We are now released from the LAW, having died to the Law to which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [Holy] Spirit and not in oldness of the Letter [The Mosaic Law].

By quoting Romans 7:7 totally out of context to justify your claim that we are still under the Mosaic Laws, what you wrote is exactly the opposite to what Paul actually saying.

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

Now let's add the context you left out: Romans 7:8, which is actually the 2nd part of the same sentence that begun in verse 7

8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

Putting 7 and 8 together, Paul is saying that the Commandment "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." focuses the mind on coveting itself, but sin, taking opportunity through the Law, the very commandment that tells us "YOU SHALL NOT COVET.", thereby producing in us every kind of coveting. If there was no commandment, our minds are freed to think of non-sinful things, more positive things.

People tend to go where they are looking. Any bicycle or motorcycle rider knows that. Even people who drive cars have that experience, a police car pulls a car to the side of a highway, and drivers passing by focus on the police action and they suddenly finding themselves steering into the passenger car or the police car, cause they drove their vehicle into the direction he was looking.

And this is the real problem with the Mosaic Law. In attempting to keeping focus on the Law, we get enticed by what we shouldn't do, our mind is not on God and good things, but rather, those who keep their eyes on keeping LAW of Moses are constantly focused on sin, and they become enticed by the Law, causing sin to increase. God never wanted to give the peoples of the Exodus The LAW, but the people did not want to walk by faith, they wanted to walk by sight asking for a set of Laws which God wanted them to keep in return for great blessings from God. Moses read them THE LAW, and they shouted we will keep them as Moses certified their contract with God with the Sprinkling of blood upon them as they said 'I Do'.

The Laws of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ are not negative, they are positive Laws that focus us on doing what is good and kind.

The Royal Law of Love.

Mt 22:37-40
" 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 " On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." NASU


The Law of Liberty. Mercy Triumphs over Judgment.

The Law of the Spirit of Life (Romans chapter 8)


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Arthur Biele

 2012/1/17 20:47Profile
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
God never wanted to give the peoples of the Exodus The LAW,


I see no biblical support for this!

Diane


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Diane

 2012/1/17 20:52Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

ArtB, the context of Rom.7 tells us that Paul, as a Pharisee, thought he was keeping the Law, because he only thought of it as an external Law. But once he considered the 10th Commandment he realized it was not just external but also internal and he was "slain" by that Commandment.

ArtB wrote: "The Laws of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ are not negative, they are positive Laws that focus us on doing what is good and kind."

Not so. The Law of Christ has both negative and positive aspects. Here are just a few examples of multitudes from the N.T.:

"Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts."(Rom.13:12-13)

"25 Therefore, putting away lying, “ Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,”for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you."(Eph.4:25-32)

"22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth"(2Tim.2:22-25)

So there is both a putting off and a putting on. We see this throughout the N.T.

But even in the O.T. we see positive moral laws given to Israel, like laws having to do with looking after the widow and the orphan(Deut.10:18-19; Isa.58:6-8, etc).

God did not, does not, nor ever will allow His children to be a lawless people. He has set boundaries for us, just like any good father does.

If we want to be lawless He leaves it up to us, but there are serious consequences, both in this life and the next.


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Oracio

 2012/1/18 15:46Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Ok it says we are dead to the Law, correct? The Law kills, correct? How then do we look to the law for eternal life and salvation?

If Christ is in me and He is the law keeper, how does He transfer this keeping of the Law to me. Is that Grace or what? No one in Christ can be lawless, for He fulfills the Law in us. How is this accomplished in the believer?

Do we live in fear of our lives, which is supposed to be in Christ but by the inability to keep the Law, which the scripture says no man has kept except Jesus Christ the incarnate Son of God, loosing our salvation because we cannot keep the Law?

I don't see any way out of this delima except trusting in Christ to keep me and fullfill the Law in me by Faith. I see in Col 1 where it says it is His work that works in me to keep me pleasing to God. That is all I want, to be pleasing to my God and Father.

If there is another way, I would like to know it. Please lay out the Plan of Salvation for me so I can keep the Law.
Which altar must I use to sacrifice the unblemished Lam, Ram, Pigeon and where must I put the blood. I really want to keep my salvation.
In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2012/1/18 17:35Profile





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