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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The law - The Gospel

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 Re:

roadsign--

Quote:
Gal. 3:10 says: “All who RELY on observing the law are under a curse



This verse is rendered in a way that makes the reader think that obeying the law is curse. But that's not what it's saying at all. Break out your favorite Bible dictionary and study this verse. here is what this verse is telling us:

Galatians 3:10 (The Message)

"And that means that anyone who tries to live by his own effort, independent of God, is doomed to failure. Scripture backs this up: "Utterly cursed is every person who fails to carry out every detail written in the Book of the law."

what a big difference, Paul will not contradict the Saviors words nor the teachings of the other apostles nor the prophets period.



 2012/1/17 13:46
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

I have to quote this before you wake up and erase it.

Quote:
It is a scriptural truth that if one is truly keeping the spirit of the law, then one will not break the letter of the law. It is the law itself that breathes the spirit in us. You can't claim to be led by the spirit while disreguarding what brings forth the spirit to begin with.



This is the most blatant judaizing agenda post I have seen from you and thank you for posting it. You have just deified the law and given attributes of God to the letter.

"The law breathes the spirit in us."

What?!?!

You have rendered yourself incapable of logical spiritual dialog.

Now I know why Paul used the word "beguiled" in Galatians.

beguiled - past participle, past tense of be·guile (Verb)
1.Charm or enchant (someone), sometimes in a deceptive way:

If the law breathes the Spirit of God which is grace then it would have done that in the OT, right? Why didn't the law bring grace in the OT if "the law breathes the Spirit", which is the "spirit of grace? (Heb 10:29)"

Why would God deliver us from something that "breathes the Spirit?" and then say the "letter is oldness" and the spirit is "newness"?
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

You say the "law breathes the spirit", then why can't we receive the spirit from the law?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

If the Spirit works miracles (which we all know He does), then the law which breathes the Spirit should work miracles.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

If we are led by the Spirit we should be led by the law, too. According to your logic! For the "law breathes the spirit" so being led by the spirit should be asking to being led by the law.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Do you see how you have just deified the letter? Do you see how you have given attributes of God to the letter? According to you the letter saves, guides, gives grace, provides freedom, works miracles, etc, etc. Because after all, "the law breathes the spirit".

I have never heard a more ridiculous statement.

Pilgrim






 2012/1/17 14:14Profile









 Re:

Slow down big guy! buy yourself A Hebrew & Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, by Julius Furst, Strong'sConcordance and study these verses,

pilgrim777 - Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


The law identifies what sin is, so if we are not under the law,then we're not walking in sin right? that means Those who are under grace are forgiven for their transgressions!

They are set free from the power that sin has over them! If we keep transgressing the law after being saved by grace, we put ourselves back into the bondage of sin and the penalty is death.

The law includes both letter and spirit.This is not my logic as you state, it's a scriptual fact. You can swing it anyhow you want to, thats your choice.

WALKING IN THE SPIRIT WOULD BE WALKING IN OBEDIENCE! Not disobedience. What a novel idea!

 2012/1/17 15:57
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I hope this doesn't turn into a sinless perfection debate. I am completely against that extreme heresy. As Christians we will still sin and need to repent of sin. We are not sinless but sin less and less as we grow into His image.

We do not lose our salvation everytime we sin. Otherwise we would need to be born again, and again, and again, you get the drift, everyday.


_________________
Oracio

 2012/1/17 16:12Profile









 Re:

Oracio--

Quote:
We are not sinless but sin less and less as we grow into His image.



I agree, it's a daily affair. We can overcome sin if we know exactly what it is. Not what we feel sin is or what the church tells us it is, sin is what the Creator of Heaven and Earth say it is.

1 John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law.

Heaven and earth can pass away and this statement will never change.

We are not being judged by how perfect we become, rather by how much genuine effort we put into overcoming.

 2012/1/17 16:41
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

theEphah,

You are quite mixed up.

The law does not identify sins of the inward heart of man. The law cannot circumcise the heart. That is an operation of the Spirit of God. The law was given to identify sin (outward sin) but it does more than that. It also condemns sin because no man can keep the law. The law was also added as a Schoolmaster to guard the Jews until Christ came. The law was a necessity until the time of Christ but to go and live back under the law would be to go back to the time before Christ.

Again, another erroneous statement.

Quote:
The Law includes both letter and spirit


Chapter and verse, please.

Paul (by the Holy Spirit) says the Law is the letter alone without the spirit.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Yet another erroneous statement:
quote]We are not being judged by how perfect we become, rather by how much genuine effort we put into overcoming.


We are not being judged by either perfection or our genuine effort.

For Paul, something has drastically changed since his experience on the road to Damascus. The risen Christ has replaced the Torah as the central theme of his life, and as the primary identity marker of all Christians. After laying out the nature of the dispute in chapter 2, "who is a sinner?" Paul begins to argue his case in Galatians 3.

Paul pursues two different courses as he makes his case here. First, he denies the charge that he is a sinner for proclaiming this freedom in Christ. He does this by turning the charge on its head and asserting that going back to law observance was itself sinful. Secondly, after thoroughly assailing the law, Paul then must find a place of value for it. He introduces this discussion in Galatians 3 by asking, "what then is the purpose of the law?" (19)

Paul's Proposition

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The Role of the LAW.
So the law was added to label, identify, and condemn sin as something contrary to God.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

It is now possible fully to grasp the intent of Paul as he considers the law in this passage. Since Paul has diminished the importance of the law, he needs to find a positive role for it, and needs to answer why turning back to the law would make the Gentile believers in Galatia flirt again with sin.

First, Paul answers that the law was added to identify sin as transgression against God. In doing so, the law did more than just identify sin, it condemned those who did these acts. And while the world was under the power of sin, the Jews were imprisoned and guarded by the law (3:22). The law was meant to guard Israel until the arrival of Christ.

Second, Paul is desperately trying to sway the minds of the Gentiles in the Galatian church. When the law was in effect, not only were the Jews guarded, but the Gentiles were excluded from the promises of God. The Jews had so hoarded the promise of God by living it in a legalistic manner, that Gentiles were looked at with contempt and considered slaves like Ishmael. To return to the law willingly would place the Gentiles in the position that the Jews were once in, to be condemned by the law, and to find themselves excluded by the very nature of the law. Being in Christ means freedom from the condemnation the law naturally brings. Paul yearned for the Galatians to remain in the freedom of Christ and removed from the restraint of the law that had formerly enslaved them as Gentiles.

According to Paul then, the law was neither positive nor negative; it was merely a necessity. More importantly it was a necessity for only a limited time, a time that had come and gone. Since that time had been superceded with the arrival of Christ, to continue to live under the law would go back to the time before Christ. No longer would the Gentiles be free, but the law that had condemned the Jews for centuries would now condemn the Gentiles.
Selections taken from: http://www.crivoice.org/gal3law.html

Pilgrim

 2012/1/17 17:30Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

by theEphah on 2012/1/17 13:41:37

Oracio--

Quote:
We are not sinless but sin less and less as we grow into His image.

I agree, it's a daily affair. We can overcome sin if we know exactly what it is. Not what we feel sin is or what the church tells us it is, sin is what the Creator of Heaven and Earth say it is.

1 John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law.

Heaven and earth can pass away and this statement will never change.

We are not being judged by how perfect we become, rather by how much genuine effort we put into overcoming.



So Ephah, you are reducing Jesus, The Only Begotten Son of God, to a mere Cheerleader. I guess you are saying:

"Jesus is an example to us, if HE can keep the Mosaic Laws in their entirety throughout His entire life, so we should follow His example and keep the entire Mosaic Law too, just as Jesus did. We just need to follow His example. All Jesus asks is that we keep the Mosaic Law, and we will have eternal life."

Are there any parts of the Mosaic Law that was cancelled by God when Jesus died on the cross?

And please explain this Prophecy in Zecariah 1: 7-14 mean to you?

Zec 11:7-14

7 So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock. 8 Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me. 9 Then I said, "I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another's flesh." 10 I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 11 So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD. 12 I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. 13 Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD. 14 Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
NASU

I pointed this scripture out many times, and not one person who believes Jesus days we must keep the Mosaic Law to be saved (enter Heaven and receive many great blessings. So tell us Ephah, what bilateral contract God made with the peoples is God annihilating, for the price of Thirty Shekels of Silver.

Feel free to anybody else who agrees with Ephaha.

As for me, my salvation is not based upon making myself sinless by keeping the whole Mosaic Law.

My salvation is the same salvation given to the Jews, redeemed from their sins by an annual sacrifice of an unblemished with one exception. My salvation comes from the Blood sacrifice of the Lamb of God, His only begotten Son, who kept the entire Mosaic Law from birth to death, but as Paul wrote, there is no further need for any additional annual sacrifice:

Heb 10:1-18

For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

"SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;
6 IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.
7 "THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME
(IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME)
TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.'"

8 After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time,SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

Heb 10:16-18

16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,"

He then says,

17 "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS
I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
NASU

Jesus was sent to the Jews to save them under the Mosaic Law, and not to the gentiles. Jesus was under the Mosaic Laws until His death. Jesus did not ever preach the gospel to anyone, nor did Jesus attempt to preach to gentiles prior His death on the cross. Upon His death, God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant with its 613 Laws.

God annhilated the Mosaic Covenant with the New Covenant of Jesus, salvation by accepting the atoning blood of Jesus, by this faith we are saved, that we believed God by accepting Jesus as our Lord and savior, whose blood has washed away all our sins for all time.

Read 1 John 1-10 before you reply.









_________________
Arthur Biele

 2012/1/17 17:44Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

theEphah-"We are not being judged by how perfect we become, rather by how much genuine effort we put into overcoming."

Good point. There will be a Judgment Day for the saved where rewards will be distributed accordingly. God does not force His children to desire and strive for the best rewards, though that is His desire for us. He leaves it up to each one whether they want to build with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw(1Cor.3:12). When He sees that we sincerely desire and strive to please Him in all things He provides the power of His Spirit to enable us.

"For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building."(1Cor.3:9)

So there is a "co-laboring" or "cooperating" together with Christ. We are not passive robots who have no choice in the kind of Christian life we live, whether victorious or defeated. Some will bearly escape the fires of hell(1Cor.3:15)

All that to say this. As believers, If we dumb down or despise God's moral Law in any way, instead of striving to honor and keep it by His Spirit, we may bearly be saved in the end. We need to say to the Lord, "Please give me the grace to honor You and Your Word in all areas of life and conduct." He promises to give us that grace, and He is not a man that He should lie.


_________________
Oracio

 2012/1/17 17:59Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

To Pilgrim:

Very nice post. I'm glad you used Galatians which plainly states we are not saved by the Mosaic Law, but by faith.

And that "we are now dead to the Mosaic law, ... for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Romans and Philippians cover this also. When we become Christians, we receive the Holy Spirit. It is the indwelling Spirit by whom we are transformed, we do not transform ourselves. God instills a new Godly nature in us as we walk by faith with God daily.


_________________
Arthur Biele

 2012/1/17 18:03Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

pilgirm777-"The law does not identify sins of the inward heart of man."

Brother, as much as I respect and admire you, I have to point out your mistake there.

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet."(Romans 7:7)

Jesus came to reveal the true spirit of the Law because it had been distorted over the years. But that spirit of the Law was always there, and God's spirtitual people, the true seed of Abraham by faith, kept the spiritual nature of God's Law all along, though not as powerfully as we are now able to in the New Covenant era.


_________________
Oracio

 2012/1/17 18:07Profile





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