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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : An omniscient God foresees Christ yet establishes law 'forever'

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pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

You are right, Jimmy. Glad you brought that up.

We are all born into "law", eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. We are born-again into Christ.

That is why we have to die. We have to die to everything!

All laws that exist whereby man may try to stand in his own righteousness.

Pilgrim

 2012/1/11 15:51Profile









 Re:

-- RobertW--

Quote:
it is impossible to keep the OT laws without largely picking and choosing



with all due respect i ask you this, which one of the laws is impossible to keep?

-Keep the Sabbath day Holy
-Stolen property must be returned to its owner.
-Loans to brothers must be without interest.
-Those who sin must be corrected
-Show honor and respect to parents.
-Become Holy as Yahweh is Holy.
-A bridegroom is to rejoice with his bride.
-Divorce can only be on account of fornication
-Do not trust in any power but Yahweh
-Do not make Gods out of anything.
-Do not spare anyone who teaches Godworship.
-Do not lust after the wealth of the Gods.
-Do not practice astrology.

I can list all 613 but I'm sure you get it. It is no secret that the only part of the Laws not being kept today by the called out ones is that concerning sacrifices. There's a reason for that, I won't get into that at this time.

Love your neighbor is not impossible to keep. None of the holy Laws is impossible, Yahweh wouldn't have given it to us.

 2012/1/11 16:27
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

theEphah: You wrote.

Quote:
See, that leaves us guessing what the Creator requires of us. He has told us what he requires, why are we making up our own rules?



The law was completely contained in carnal ordinances, in rules that can be kept in the flesh. The problem was the weakness of man's flesh. Paul tells us that the law was good and righteous and holy. He also tells us that the law (specifically the part of the law written in stone, the ten commandments) was a ministration of death. How can that which is a ministration of death be holy? The answer is that the law contained a picture of the holiness of God manifested by carnal do's and don'ts that man could never keep. So when we are compared to that holy standard it can work only one thing in us, condemnation. Now we find in Hebrews that the law contained the image of things to come, and not the thing itself. In context this deals with the laws pertaining to sacrifices. The law was a carnal picture of a spiritual reality that would be fulfilled in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. In like manner the remainder of the law was also incomplete and ineffectual for producing righteousness because it was never the thing that could truly produce righteousness, but only a picture of that thing. Remember Hebrews tells us it was removed because of its inability to produce righteousness. To think that we could by keeping the law be right with God falls so far short of God's true standard of righteousness.

That is why I quoted you. Your statement is a lot like saying, "The law tells me what I can and cannot do and still be OK with God." This question is not one that a man truly saved by grace and regenerated by the spirit would ever ask. Instead he would say, "God, by your Holy Spirit direct my paths so that I might walk worthy of the righteousness that has been given me through no effort of my own." A regenerated spirit in communion with the Holy Spirit is not looking for the line between right and wrong, but rather looking to walk in communion and fellowship with the Way, the Truth, and the Life. This walk will produce holiness that the law-keeper does not comprehend. Jesus spoke of this in Matthew 5. He said to the common people that if they wanted to be right with God that their righeousness had to exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees. This blew them out of the water as they looked to these men who kept the law better than everyone else as the epitome of holiness. Then Jesus says things like, "It is written that you shall not commit adultery but I say if you look on a woman lustfully you are guilty of adultery." You see, the Pharisees said, "God, what do You require?" and looked to the law. It said, "do not commit adultery." So they might look at women lustfully and have all sorts of mental fantasy, but as long as they did not commit the act of adultery they felt justified. Jesus destroyed that idea and showed that if you wanted to be righteous by your own works that you had to be as perfect as God is perfect. This is an impossible task.

No born again believer who is truly regenerated would ever say, "Well, now that I am not under law I think I will go commit adultery." A person whose focus is on the flesh would think such a thing, but not a person born again by the Spirit of God is convicted and repentant when they give in for even a moment to lustful thoughts. In that respect a Christian keeps the law, but not according to the letter. Rather they are one with the One who is Holiness itself through the indwelling Holy Spirit and they live their carnal lives as an outflow of the Holy Spirit within. They are the true law-keepers though they do not regard the letter of the law.

You see, I NEVER have to guess what my creator requires of me. When I sin, He convicts me by His Holy Spirit and I repent. He tells me go here or don't go there, do this or don't do that. Don't get me wrong, when He speaks to me His words will never contradict the written word of God, but I am not living according to a letter in my own effort but according to an inner witness of the Holy Spirit.


_________________
Travis

 2012/1/11 16:30Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Again, the keeping of the Old Testament Law is impossible. I am familiar with this law in that I took 5 semesters of it when I studied with the Messianics. It is utterly hopeless to try to bring Christians under this law. To do so is to invite Paul's anethema from Galatians 1. Having begun in the Spirit a person cannot be perfected by going backwards under the law.

Even the Jews understood the laws limitations. This is why the Rabbi's had introduced a system of Halaka. The covenant contains many points of agreement between God and Israel that cannot be altered. Since they cannot be altered and the covenant cannot be serviced we can agree with the writer to Hebrews that it has waxed old and is ready to vanish away. The Old Covenant was as much anything a tenancy agreement for the people in the land.


It might be helpful to say that we have had this conversation numerous times on SI over the years. We have had to close these threads before as they almost never serve a profitable purpose. Simply put, those that are in Christ are under the New Covenant. They are not antinomians, nor are they as Kariates. That is as plain as anything. Historically the Pharisees fled to Yavneh (Jamnia) in 70 CE to start Rabbinic judaism, but had already been making void the Law through their traditions for a long time. The Old Covenant is not a 'living document' in the sense that some make our US Constitution. Yet, this is how even the 613 Laws (a later codification btw) are kept up. It is a shocking sham for any that would study it to know just how this plays out. The Rabbis are in authority to interpret and apply the Law as they see fit for the times with no real obligation to follow past precedent or for future Rabbis to follow their rulings.

One of the problems is that the Old Covenant is viewed as 'teaching' and not law by many practitioners. This is not what the writer to Hebrews tells us. The law was carnal ordinances imposed upon the people until the time of reformation (Hebrews 9:10). Notice 'until' signifying that it would end. With a new priesthood came also by necessity a change of the law.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/1/11 16:57Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

theEphah,

Do you have any sons? If so, did you circumcise him on the 8th day? Or what about yourself? Are you circumcised? And if I'm not currently circumcised, should I become such?


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/1/11 17:05Profile









 Re:

--RobertW--

Quote:
It is utterly hopeless to try to bring Christians under this law.



You are absolutely correct. It is completely hopeless for Christians.

I understand that this topic has been discussed many times on the forum, I've read many of the threads. If the topic keeps coming up then it's worthy of discussion don't you think?

you said--(This is why the Rabbi's had introduced a system of Halaka)

Since you're a bible scholar, then you would know that It's the same Rabbi's who were known as Pharisees, Sadducees & Essenese

The same folks that destroyed Solomon's temple, stole the artifacts and ploughed Zion like a field.

You mean the same Rabbi’s that changed their name to Universal (Catholics) and moved to Rome?

Same folks that murdered the Savior because he exposed their sins by teaching the Law?

Being a Jew brother doesn’t make you righteous, so the reference that you made about the Rabbis is irrelevant.

The large majority of the Jews never kept the Law , they hated it, as early as the days of Moses (remember the golden calf?) They don't practice it today either.

Yashua declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem John 4:20

We can agree to disagree, I am not teaching Christians the Law (that’s a lost cause) however, if a question is asked, I will defend the Righteous Laws Of the Creator of heaven and earth.

By the way, you didn’t answer my question, “which of the commandments is impossible to keep?”

 2012/1/11 18:34
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Hey there Ephah,

I'll bite.

When you say "which one of the laws is impossible to keep"? I take it to mean "to keep and not break", otherwise you really did not "keep" it. Right?

If you can answer this question (for clarification's sake) I will finish answering your question.

Thank you,
Pilgrim

 2012/1/11 18:43Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: """We can agree to disagree, I am not teaching Christians the Law (that’s a lost cause) however, if a question is asked, I will defend the Righteous Laws Of the Creator of heaven and earth."""

Then what are you doing in defending the Law? Are you a Christian?

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2012/1/11 18:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Then what are you doing in defending the Law? Are you a Christian?



I'm a believer! I have a question for you;

The Saviors name is Yashua, he's a Hebrew. All 12 disciples were Hebrews,they had never heard of the name Jesus Christ before, so what did the call themselves?

 2012/1/11 18:59
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

theEphah,

Do you have any sons? If so, did you circumcise him on the 8th day? Or what about yourself? Are you circumcised? And if I'm not currently circumcised, should I become such?


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/1/11 19:05Profile





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