| Poster | Thread | sermonindex
Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Jobs High Standard of Life by Zac Poonen | |
In Job, chapters 26-31, Job gives a list of all the many good things he had done in his life to help others. As we read through these chapters, it is amazing to see the tremendous light that Job had about God and His ways and the high standard of life that he lived way back in those days when there was no Bible and without the indwelling Holy Spirit. It is good to look through some things in these chapters, because they put us to shame and challenge us to live at a much higher standard today.
He begins by saying how foolish man is to dig deep for gold but not to seek for wisdom (28:1,12,13). He goes on to say that the fear of the Lord is wisdom and to depart from evil is understanding (28:28). Solomon said exactly the same thing 1000 years later in Proverbs 9:10. Undoubtedly, he got that understanding from reading the book of Job. In Chapter 29, Job goes on to speak about his past, when he lived in friendship with God, helping the poor, the orphans, the widows, the blind, the lame and the needy. In Chapter 30, he complains that in spite of all the good he had done, he was now suffering and had been brought so low by God.
In Chapter 31, he speaks of the righteousness of his life. He had been careful with his eyes not to lust after women (v.1). He had light on this sin 2000 years before Jesus spoke about it in Matthew 5. He had walked in integrity without any falsehood (v.5,6), he had never been unfaithful to his wife (v.9-12), he had treated his servants with kindness (v.13-15), he had helped the poor and the widows and brought up orphans as his own children (v.16-23), he had not trusted in gold or been idolatrous (v.24-28), he had not rejoiced when his enemy was defeated (v.29,30), he had cared for strangers (v.31, 32), he had confessed his sin whenever he sinned (v.33), he had not been afraid of the contempt of people (v.34), and had even cared for his land properly (v.38-40). He cries out to God to answer him (v.35).
We can see in these chapters what a godly man Job was. He had light on so many areas of his life and was an extremely helpful man. Yet he did not have light on one thing: Spiritual pride. Pride in his godliness. God loved Job and was determined that Job should have that one virtue of humility also before he left this earth. And so, in immense love for Job, God took him through this deep trial in order to make him both godly and humble.
When the godly apostle Paul was in danger of becoming proud, God took Paul also through suffering. He gave him a thorn in the flesh, which was a messenger of Satan (2 Cor.12:7). Job had a messenger of Satan too. But Paul knew why he got it. Job didnt know. That is why God takes many godly people through suffering, misunderstanding, opposition and persecution - to humble them and break them so that He can pour out His grace upon them, for He gives His grace only to the humble. We cannot blame Job for complaining. He didnt have a Bible, the indwelling Holy Spirit, or a brother to encourage him. But Paul never complained; and neither need we.
_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
|
|  2011/12/24 8:59 | Profile |
| | Re: Jobs High Standard of Life by Zac Poonen | | "But Paul never complained; and neither need we."
I wholeheartedly, completely, utterly, 1000%, disagree.
I seriously doubt that Paul did not complain to God. Moses complained to God, the psalms are full of complaint, Elijah complained, Jeremiah complained to God...
Suffering produces pain, and in that pain bitterness, anger, resentment, and all sorts of ugly things rise to the surface. If we cannot trust God with our pain (all of these ugly things) then in whom will we trust. And trusting God with our pain and hurt means pouring it all out to Him. I have said things to God, I would never say to human beings, and you know what...God was not surprised or shocked...Because He knew it was all in there any way.
If we do not pour out our pain to God, which sometimes means complaining to God about people and circumstances in our lives, then we will have no ability to love those who have hurt us, or overcome impossible situations.
David poured his heart out to God....and you can be sure some ugly things ran out.
Trust God with your pain and see the salvation of God. |
| | 2011/12/24 10:07 | | sermonindex
Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | Quote:
If we do not pour out our pain to God, which sometimes means complaining to God about people and circumstances in our lives, then we will have no ability to love those who have hurt us, or overcome impossible situations.
Brother, I agree with you as I have shared by bitterness or fustrations with God at times. But this was not fruitful yet God accepted it and shed His love abroad to me. We must desire to overcome these things and get to the place where we can praise God for these pains and problems. That is where Paul the Apostle reached in his walk with the Lord in many ways.
I do not want to be a grumbler like those in the wilderness. We can struggle with this but must desire to overcome these sins by the grace of God.
1 corinthians 10:10-13
And do not grumble, as some of them didand were killed by the destroying angel.
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you dont fall! 13 No temptation[c] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted[d] beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[e] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
|
| | 2011/12/24 10:17 | Profile | PaulWest
Member
Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | Quote:
I do not want to be a grumbler like those in the wilderness. We can struggle with this but must desire to overcome these sins by the grace of God.
Amen! It is possible, dear brother. It is God's will that we triumph over all of Satan's influence, over the pull of our flesh and mind, over depression, grumbling, over all discontent and lust, it is God's will that we never again get entangled with the base things of our previous life in Adam, but that we always rejoice in Christ Jesus, and walk in selfless love toward all men, reflecting the glory of Him Who indwells us.
If Jesus never complained, than neither should we. He is our example, and He empowers us to follow Him, for He is our very Life. Any opposing view is antiscriptural and going off personal testimony and defeatism and using it to trump God's Word by virtue of their own extistentialism.
I've noticed Zac Poonen's articles generate quite a bit of opposition and misunderstanding in Christian forums, when all he does is dare echo scripture and stand upon the radical promises of God concerning the divine nature. If such things weren't actually in scripture, I too wouldn't think it were possible!
_________________
Paul Frederick West
|
| | 2011/12/24 10:40 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Greg,
They weren't complaining to God. They were complaining to each other about Moses and Aaron. They were gossiping and slandering. They were sharing their bitterness and anger with each other. There was no faith involved in what they were doing. They were not trusting God. They were, in fact, idolators because they were turning to the creature rather than the Creator.
The temptation that threatens to overtake us is to complain to one another and gossip about one another....and the way of escape is to go to God and trust Him with all the pain and hurt, anger and bitterness.
Praising God in our suffering does not involve suppressing or repressing our feelings and emotions. That is just stoicism. It is not Christianity. Even Jesus told His Father how he really felt in the garden..."let this cup pass..."
You can be sure that the pain and complaining will come out. We will either complain to each other or to God. One is idolatry, and the other is true, vibrant, faith. |
| | 2011/12/24 11:02 | | Yeshuasboy
Member
Joined: 2006/6/10
Posts: 668
Northern Rockies, BC, Canada
| | Re: | | Better to believe God than man.
"The insignificances of daily life are the importances and the tests of eternity, because they prove what really is the spirit that possesses us. It is in our most unguarded moments that we really show and discern what we are" - Andrew Murray (Humility, Chapter 6). Oh, how I've witnessed this truth in my own life.
"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee. Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee." - Prv 4:23-25
Godly Stephen was able to stand firm and preach the truth in holy boldness to the crowd because, I believe, he was enabled to do so. However, he was also enabled to react in a godly fashion when that crowd began stoning him to death saying, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge." Why was this so? - I believe God tells us why for this reason - "being full of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 7:55).
Truly it is so that all things are possible with God to them that believe, to them that are called according to His purposes; for, His ways are above our ways, and His thoughts above ours.
"Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." - Luke 6:36
_________________
Richie
|
| | 2011/12/24 12:35 | Profile | rookie
Member
Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN
| | Re: Jobs High Standard of Life by Zac Poonen | | "We can see in these chapters what a godly man Job was. He had light on so many areas of his life and was an extremely helpful man. Yet he did not have light on one thing: Spiritual pride. Pride in his godliness. God loved Job and was determined that Job should have that one virtue of humility also before he left this earth. And so, in immense love for Job, God took him through this deep trial in order to make him both godly and humble."
Poonen states that Job "had light". I ask from what source did this "light" emanate from. You see whether it was Job or Paul, unity of spirit comes from God. And God is the One who teaches men His ways for He is the potter and we are the clay. The Potter's work is that the 'vessel" glorify Him.
Paul learned the same precept from God.
Phl 3:8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
Phl 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which [is] from the law, but that which [is] through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
Phl 3:10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
Phl 3:11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Paul's hope is to "be found in Him, not having (his) own righteousness, which is from the law,... but that which is
righeousness from God by faith..."
We see that God also worked through the power of the Holy Spirit to teach Job about the same stumbling block.
Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD and said:
Job 42:2 "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose [of Yours] can be withheld from You.
Job 42:3 [You asked], 'Who [is] this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
Job 42:4 Listen, please, and let me speak; [You said], 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.'
Job 42:5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You.
Job 42:6 Therefore I abhor [myself], And repent in dust and ashes."
Job declares the source of 'his light"... "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eyes sees You." God removed his scales that day.
No man can rid himself of self righteousness unless the Lord does the work.
_________________
Jeff Marshalek
|
| | 2011/12/24 13:40 | Profile |
| | Re: | | In psalm 57 we see David in a cave, hiding, at a low point in his life yet he writes.........
"Psa 57:7 My heart is fixed, O God, my heart is fixed: I will sing and give praise."
In another translation is says that his heart is steadfast. There is a definate difference between those who grumbled in the desert ( and everyone of them fell there, never leaveing the desert) and those who, despite going through severe circumstances, have steadfast hearts. Keeping it real, the psalms is full of the psalmists crying out to God and telling him of their situations. I love that I can come before my Father and tell Him how things are. If I am being honest, and it sounds kinda proud, I do not complain to God. I tell Him I am hurting, but I truly believe that the steps of a righteous man are ordered of God. I love the fact that Paul is praising God in the depths of the dungeon. And, we see this same Spirit in saints down through the ages. This is in comparison to the Israelites at the river f Babylon after being defeated and taken into captivity. When goaded by their captors to " sing their songs of victories now," they hung their harps upon the willow tree. This was symbolic of not being able to praise God and the willow tree symbolizes weeping.
As opposed to the Israelites of old, we walk in the victory of Jesus Christ that allows us to rejoice even in the depths of our trials. This is the victory. It comes through the pain, not instead of it. The Lord sees the affliction of His people. He hears their cries. He hears their plea's. This is a world apart from grumbling and complaining. Even in the psalms we see that " He prepares a table before us in the presence of our enemies."
Zac Poonen, like every other preacher, gets it wrong sometimes. Praise God we do not follow men, but praise God for men of God willing to lead when called upon to do so. No man is beyond questioning. Only in cults and dictatorships are men unquestioned. God is no respector of persons. We are accountable to each other and we are called to be mutually submissive to each other. When this spirit abounds, so does freedom and grace and joy and peace................brother Frank
|
| | 2011/12/24 14:08 | | Sree
Member
Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953
| | Re: | | Quote:
Praising God in our suffering does not involve suppressing or repressing our feelings and emotions. That is just stoicism. It is not Christianity. Even Jesus told His Father how he really felt in the garden..."let this cup pass..."
Emotional Christianity is not a true Christianity. One needs to come out of his emotional thoughts and start living spiritual.
NT never talks about complaining to God. Instead It says to take it pure Joy when we face trails.
James 1-2:-
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.
How can we complain about our trail to Lord and still consider it Joy?
NT standard is much higher than OT, sad that people who call themselves Christians don't even understand this high standard and that is why people still start quoting David when they commit adultery.
Finally Jesus never complained to God about the cup, he pleaded to God to take this cup away if it is his will. Again none of us will be called to take this cup anymore. This is something that Jesus alone took and this cup was the Sin of whole world that caused the God the Father to turn away from Jesus. If God decides to turn away from you, you obviously cannot be happy and consider it Joy. This is extreme level of trails and the good news is, it is finished and we will never face this cup. One cannot compare the Cup that Jesus took to any trail including even persecution for his name.
_________________
Sreeram
|
| | 2011/12/24 15:58 | Profile | PaulWest
Member
Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | It is noteworthy that we really don't see anyone grumbling in the New Testament after Pentecost. We see people burdened, like Paul for his fellow Jews, and beseeching God repeatedly through prayer to remove an unpleasant thorn in the flesh, but never do we see anyone grumbling or complaining like we do with men in the Old Testment.
This is because the Holy Spirit gives us contentment in all situations, regardless of the outside surroundings in food, money, clothing, persecutions, prisons, betrayals, etc. The apostles could rejoice forevermore. This sort of thing was not possible in the Old Covenant, for men did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within their vessels, the "old man" in Adam was still enthroned in the heart and the law of Moses could do nothing about it.
This is why we read of so much fleshly complaining in the Psalms; venting and seething and striving was all that men like David and Solomon and people like Asaph could do without the Holy Spirit. Many of the same Psalms which contain fleshly complaints also in the same breath petition God to rip the enemy (usually some earthly nation or tribe) to shreds and dash their children to pieces. As New Covenant believers we are not followers of David or Moses or Elijah or Solomon. We are followers of Christ Jesus exclusively. Victory over discontentment in life could only be had by the indwelling might of the Holy Spirit through Christ.
_________________
Paul Frederick West
|
| | 2011/12/24 16:38 | Profile |
|
