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 Re:

I'll clarify... I do believe in healing, miracles, and tongues. That does not make me a Charismatic... it makes me a Bible believer.

However, I believe that 90% of what we see in the Western church (America) is a farce. (I'm referring to "charismatic" gifts) Not all, mind you... probably 10% of it is legit. (I know thats subjective, I'm trying to make a point) But I believe the American church is in the same boat the church in Corinth was when Paul wrote to her... and rebuked her. (people point to the letters to the Corinthians when teaching about gifts... but dont seem to realize that these are rebuking letters.)

As far as extra-biblical experiences, I do not believe they are of God. I dont see slaying in the Spirit in scripture... or barking like dogs... or laughing on the floor. (Intersting that one fruit of the Spirit is SELF-CONTROL.)

One thing I find to be true by observation is that the Charismatic Movement is like a drug... the more you do the deeper you go. There is a strong tendancy for people to start out doctrinally sound in the Charismatic Movement, but over a period of time doctrine goes out the window and they accept more and more crazy stuff.

Jesus warned of a time when people would heap false teachers onto themselves... and nowhere today is that more evident than in the Charismatic Movement. Just look at TBN. Benny Hinn, Paul Crouch, Robert Tilton, etc etc...

Krispy

 2005/1/26 16:56
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 Re:

In the Revival Hymn, I believe Ian Paisley and Ravenhill testify of many being knocked out and lying prostrate on the ground during the times of Wesley and also the Welch revival.

Wasn't it testified somewhere in one of these sermon's that the police would check to see if the man lying prostrate in the street was drunk with alcohol or of the Spirit that was poured out during the Welch revival.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/1/26 17:08Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Thank you for your post. Just wanted to caution you about the use of the very general term "Charismatic Movement". I am always a bit foggy about what exactly the "Charismatic Movement" was.


I agree with this we do have to be careful of over generalizing things. I am becoming part of the Calvary Chapel movement which is labelled under the charismatic heading by most.. but they are very biblical even more then alot of fundemental churches.

But staying away from churches that given an sense of spirituality but keep away from studying and basing their lifes on the words of the bible is a good thing. God keep us as a people of the word, feeding off that true word that comes from above.

Here is another old thread that address some of this topic:
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2710&forum=40&46]Physical Manifestations in Religious Excitments (falling under the power of God)[/url]


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2005/1/26 17:16Profile
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Quote:
Wasn't it testified somewhere in one of these sermon's that the police would check to see if the man lying prostrate in the street was drunk with alcohol or of the Spirit that was poured out during the Welch revival.


Yes look to the link above: [b]Physical Manifestations in Religious Excitments (falling under the power of God)[/b] to read abit about the reason why people fell under the power of God.


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 2005/1/26 17:18Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
As far as extra-biblical experiences, I do not believe they are of God. I dont see slaying in the Spirit in scripture... or barking like dogs... or laughing on the floor. (Intersting that one fruit of the Spirit is SELF-CONTROL.)



ok I have asked this question before, what does it mean to say one of the gifts of the spirit is self control? is this in a behavioral sense or is it in controlling the spirit itself? can someone shed some insight onto this?


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Farai Bamu

 2005/1/31 11:45Profile
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 Re:

Brethren
I have been reading some of the posts and have put some of my own concerning this topic. One of my posts was a brief testimony of my experiences as far as being slain in the spirit. Since it happened the last time I have seen God increase in me as never before. I have also discovered that I was mistaken and we all are mistaken concerning the workings of God. We like to say God can only do this or that in this way but the truth is that God DOES AS HE PLEASES. I have been humbled by Him and He has shown me that I really know nothing about how He operates because it is beyond the scope of my comprehension. Instead God simply wants me to do one thing, submit to His will. In this submission dear brethren we need not scratch our heads and try to figure out what God wants us to do or what He means. The bible says we are to become like little children does it not. Have you ever noticed that children are not at all concerned about the ins and outs of how the world works? All they do is play and eat etc. A mark of "growing up" is understanding how things work and being able to think for oneself and this is the way of the world and God does not fit here that's why we have to go back to becoming as children again. We need to stop questioning God and just submit to his will. We sometimes get so caught up in the details of what this saying means and so on and so forth we lose sight of the REAL DEAL, what God wants us to according to His will. One post mentioned that tongues or laughing etc in the spirit were unbiblical (don't quote me on that but it was something to that effect) my experience is that the spirit also feels grief and cries at certain times, and laughs for joy in others, is sometimes angry and these are all emotions that God feels concerning us as well, let us not lose sight of that. Now that may not be mentioned in the bible but that does not mean it is fake necessarily. Of course I am not saying that it is all true because there are some fakers out there. Consider this, the apostles did not write down EVERY single dealing or word that God spoke to them, only what they were instructed by God to complete the canon of the bible so that it would be perfect for it's purpose which it is. I submit to you all that the mind can not remember all these things but the spirit certainly does which is why we are to walk in the spirit always so we can ALWAYS exercise the things that GOd has shown to us in the spirit because the flesh can't profit from these things. You will ask "how come some things were left out?" and the truth of this is two-fold:

1)God does as He pleases whether we agree with it or not, can you or I go to heaven and say to God "I think you need to do this here and undo that and do this instead"? Of course not!
2)We do not know how God operates despite what we have experienced because experience a+ experience b may equal revelation c or d or y of whatever according to God's will. We like to think we know a lot but in truth we know NOTHING! That is a very sobering thought isn't it? That after all these years of doing this and that we know nothing because half or more of the time we have done what WE wanted to do rather than what God commands us to do. I thought I knew a good deal about how God works but this weekend I was humbled and I quickly let that thought go away from me. He told me that submission was the key and I had to go back to being as a child, and we all do.
But we also need to know that the word of God is not limited to the bible, it also consists of other instructions given to individuals or groups for specific instances, this is when one hears that still small voice that speaks to your individual situation. This also means that whatever God says to me or to you can not contradict what is in the bible either.\

God does not want us to try and comprehend Him with our minds because we can't, GOd is spirit and that is where we need to meet Him. He simply asks that we submit (without question or reservation or any other foolishness for that matter) to His will, no strings, no isms or ologies just COMPLETE SUBMISSION.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/1/31 12:18Profile
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 Re:

Farai

Quote:
But we also need to know that the [u]word of God is not limited to the bible[/u], it also consists of other instructions given to individuals or groups for specific instances, this is when one hears that still small voice that speaks to your individual situation. This also means that whatever God says to me or to you can not contradict what is in the bible either.\

God does not want us to try and comprehend Him with our minds because we can't, GOd is spirit and that is where we need to meet Him. He simply asks that we submit (without question or reservation or any other foolishness for that matter) to His will, no strings, no isms or ologies just COMPLETE SUBMISSION.



Amen!

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

2 Timothy2: 9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

Acts6:7And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Acts12:24But the word of God grew and multiplied.

Acts19:20So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.

Ephesians6:17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Hebrew12: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Hebrews11:3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

1Peter1:23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1John2:14I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Your Brother in Christ

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/1/31 12:57Profile
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 Re:

I have read the entire thread that was recommended. The thought that I came away with is this. God works to create a theology within each of us. To know He is real is the beginning. Not by reading words and believeing what the words describe, but actually experiencing the demonstration of the power of the word in one's life. Now the manifestation of the power of God's word is a work that encompasses both the mind and the heart. One can search the Scriptures diligently and yet not have salvation. One can have passion and zeal yet not have salvation. God works on both the mind and the heart.

Think about what renews the mind. Think about what softens the heart. God is the only One who can give the "increase." Man can only sow and water from that which he believes he understands. Paul could not define the love that he had for Jesus in a way that another would understand. Paul always prayed for the believer that they too would understand the love that comes from Christ.

So in this thread, I see some posts that pretain to the mind and some to the heart, and a few that have both mind and heart. It seems to me that the power of God will bring glory to His name. How He chooses to demonstrate His power to those who believe is His to dispense.

Matt. 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.

God reveals His hidden ways to the babes who accept in simple child like faith. The wise and prudent seem to miss the mark.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/1/31 13:36Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
God works to create a theology within each of us. To know He is real is the beginning. Not by reading words and believeing what the words describe, but actually experiencing the demonstration of the power of the word in one's life. Now the manifestation of the power of God's word is a work that encompasses both the mind and the heart. One can search the Scriptures diligently and yet not have salvation. One can have passion and zeal yet not have salvation. God works on both the mind and the heart.

Think about what renews the mind. Think about what softens the heart. God is the only One who can give the "increase." Man can only sow and water from that which he believes he understands. [u]Paul could not define the love that he had for Jesus[/u] in a way that another would understand. Paul always prayed for the believer that they too would understand the love that comes from Christ.



Amen brother Jeff!

Dr Tozer had a good sermon on faith which began thus:

“ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Now, we’ll stop there because he plunges on to illustrate what he has to say by Able and the rest of them. This is the faith chapter of the bible and here faith is demonstrated. Its (faith) deeds are recorded yet there is no definition of faith given here nor is there a definition of faith given anywhere in the scriptures. Let us remember when it says, “now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen it is not giving us a definition. Just as when it said, “God is love” it is not giving us a definition of God nor a definition of love. There are very few definitions in the bible, the reason being that definitions have to do with philosophy and reason, whereas the bible is not a book of philosophy and reason but a spiritual book directed to the heart. It (the bible) is a book of morals and it is not a book of ethics. Ethics is another word for righteousness or morals and the “ethical book” reasons concerning good and bad. The bible is not a book of reason about good or bad the bibl is an authoritative book telling us what is good and what is bad. We need no textbook on ethics when we come to the word of God, God has written the only textbook there is that is valid and binding upon all men.

So there is no definition of love given, there is no definition of righteousness, there are very few if any definitions given in the scriptures, and there is none of faith here. Faith is demonstrated not defined and I should like to point out to you that this is God’s ideal for His Church. Not that love should be defined from the pulpit, but that it should be demonstrated in the pews. Not that faith should be defined in the pulpit but that it should be practiced by people in the pews as well as by the man in the pulpit”

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/1/31 14:32Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
God reveals His hidden ways to the babes who accept in simple child like faith. The wise and prudent seem to miss the mark.



the defense rests on that note...


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Farai Bamu

 2005/1/31 17:21Profile





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