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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Law Tithing VS. Spirit led giving?

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RAM-1
Member



Joined: 2011/11/25
Posts: 2


 Re:

The Trial of Pastor Jones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWpN45-oWyw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

_____________________________
Wise ones do not quarrel, so no one can quarrel with one.
I'd rather have questions I can't answer, than answers I can't question!
Remember why we share and discuss! All we have to lose are the errors we hold, and then we gain the truth! There is nothing but shame to be gained by willfully holding to false opinions!

 2011/11/26 20:13Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3433
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

I do recall hearing a minister say that if we all gave according to the New Testament model that we would see a lot of unfruitful ministries die and a lot of fruitful ones thrive. We would give where the Spirit of God directed us to and do it joyfully. If my heart is in tune with the Holy Spirit then I believe "where I purpose in my heart" will be where God also purposes that I give. I thought it a really good perspective.
------------------------
Amen brother!! It's an excellent perspective, amen!


_________________
Lisa

 2011/11/26 20:29Profile









 Re: Paul West Post

I went back and reread Paul's post about reading the New Testament for the first time without any prior knowledge of the Old Testament. And Paul has articulated the problem. In reading the New Testament alone as a book it speaks of a sincere faith in Christ and how that faith is lived out in the indwelling Holy Spirit.

When you mix the Old Testament in with the New you get problems with incorrect teaching and false doctrine. Among these are Sabbath keeping and tithing. How many threads have we seen started in this forum on these topics and the bondage that people have been put under.

I find it interesting that in the gospel accounts of the mount of transfiguration, God the Father tells the disciples, this is my Son whom I love, listen to him. This is told to them after Moses and Elijah are departing. Only Jesus remains. Certainly this should say something to us.

The persecuted church in places like China or Iran do not get embroiled in these discussions of tithing or Sabboth keeping. One reason is they have only the New Testament. They have only Jesus. I might add this is why these countries are seeing revival. They are preaching Jesus and his word.

A lot of confusion would be avoided if we would stay out of the Old Testament and camp in the New.

Blaine Scogin

 2011/11/26 23:26









 Re:

Blaine, I believe you are sincere but you cannot contradict what Paul, the apostle, said about the old testament.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Many powerfull revivals in christianity have occured by ministers preaching from the Old Testament.

Also Jesus declared.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

We as ministers must declare that all are under the curse of sin shown by the Law of OT so that they might receive liberty from it through Christ. once this is done then the born again christian is free from the curse of the law to live in the new law of Christ!

But we cannot say to stay away from OT that would be against what Paul says in NT to do!

I do wish you would see and acknowledge this so that true biblical balance could continue for you and all who you would teach.

 2011/11/27 6:28
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

I'm feeling a bit responsible now for causing this NT versus OT confusion. I think I should explain a few things:

The Old Testament is just as much the Word of God as the New Testament, but it must be read in its proper context, as it has its own distinct purpose. The context is that of a schoolmaster pointing to a shadow that is ever directing us to Jesus Christ. We need to understand as well that there are several instances even in the New Testament where we are dealing with an Old Testament situation, i.e. Jesus' dealings with the Pharisees, Paul confronting the Jews of Asia Minor, etc. It is very important to recognize in scripture which covenant the Holy Spirit is speaking of at any given point. This is how we are protected from legalism, or, to put it another way, from mixing the shadow with the Substance.

That said, the shadow is important, because it pre-defines the Substance and gives a fuller understanding of it to us. It's like looking at a practice exam before taking the real test. If I am sitting in a room and suddenly see the shadow of my wife, I know that a good thing is coming and I can prepare myself to receive her. I am no longer occupied with her shadow; I turn away from it to find her substance. The shadows of the OT should cause us to seek the spiritual realities which are paralleled in the Substance of Christ Jesus.

Do not therefore cast away the book of shadows and examples. Learn how to use it, let the Lord give you wisdom in this area. How would we know about the extent of sabbath rest spiritualized in Christ if we didn't have the law's shadow as a study guide? How would we understand the "circumcision made without hands" reality if we weren't first acquainted with the shadow of the Patriarchs? How would we understand the blessedness of the "firstfruits of God" without a prior study of that feast? Without the OT shadows, we would only have a paltry understanding and a severely-handicapped appreciation for the awesome advantages that are manifest when we turn from them to bask in the Light of Christ's Reality.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2011/11/27 7:58Profile









 Re: Paul and Thingsabove

Brothers I am not denying that the Old Testament is the word if God. But Paul, as you rightly observed, it is a shadow of Who was to come. Jesus told the Jewish scholars of his day that the Old Testament writings testified of him. But they were too busy studying the shadow to see the Messiah had come. He was standing before them as the Incarnate Word of God.

I have never met either of you. Say you send me a picture by email. I look at that picture to see what you look like. But at best that picture is only a shadow of who you are. Then I meet you at a Sermon Index conference. I have met the real person depicted in the photograph. When I am in your presence I don't have to keep looking at the picture to see who you are. I see the real person. Such is our relationship with Jesus who lives in us by his Spirit.

The above example pales to the reality of that marvelous relationship to Jesus. But it is the best way I have to understand the shadow of the Old Testament and the reality of the New Covenant living in Jesus.

Blessings in Christ,

Blaine Scogin

 2011/11/27 8:51
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7512
Mississippi

 Re:

QUOTE:
"The Old Testament is just as much the Word of God as the New Testament, but it must be read in its proper context, as it has its own distinct purpose. The context is that of a schoolmaster pointing to a shadow that is ever directing us to Jesus Christ. We need to understand as well that there are several instances even in the New Testament where we are dealing with an Old Testament situation, i.e. Jesus' dealings with the Pharisees, Paul confronting the Jews of Asia Minor, etc. It is very important to recognize in scripture which covenant the Holy Spirit is speaking of at any given point. This is how we are protected from legalism, or, to put it another way, from mixing the shadow with the Substance.

That said, the shadow is important, because it pre-defines the Substance and gives a fuller understanding of it to us. It's like looking at a practice exam before taking the real test. If I am sitting in a room and suddenly see the shadow of my wife, I know that a good thing is coming and I can prepare myself to receive her. I am no longer occupied with her shadow; I turn away from it to find her substance. The shadows of the OT should cause us to seek the spiritual realities which are paralleled in the Substance of Christ Jesus.

Do not therefore cast away the book of shadows and examples. Learn how to use it, let the Lord give you wisdom in this area. How would we know about the extent of sabbath rest spiritualized in Christ if we didn't have the law's shadow as a study guide? How would we understand the "circumcision made without hands" reality if we weren't first acquainted with the shadow of the Patriarchs? How would we understand the blessedness of the "firstfruits of God" without a prior study of that feast? Without the OT shadows, we would only have a paltry understanding and appreciation for the awesome advantages that are manifest when we turn from them to bask in the Light of Christ's Reality."

AMEN!

I can add little to it...but would like to share a testimony of how wonderful the OT law is/was.

The OT teaches one a lot about the holiness of God. He is very exacting. All of creation demonstrates this as well. Everything God touches is exacting, perfect. He does not do anything half-way. I came to this conclusion after the Holy Spirit lead me to study Numbers, of all books! Found out later I am not the only person to have experienced this.

The NT writer use a lot of OT imagery to demonstrate some eternal truth. Unless you understand these images its meaning is lost to the reader. Years ago when I was reading Paul's writings I got bored and wondered why he is so redundant in talking about Jesus being the sacrifice, etc...just on and on. I knew that! What's the big deal, anyway? Then the Holy Spirit lead me to study the OT law, beginning in Leviticus. I did and Oh! suddenly I understood! It was as though a huge spotlight was turned on and now I see! I understood! AMAZING!

In the OT law there are rules for life, dealing with washings, sanitation, among other things. Is it not odd that it was not until recent times that people were beginning to understand these principles and apply them in matters of sanitation to prevent disease and its spread? Hey! The OT law spoke of this long before modern medical science discovered it. The OT law gave no reason other then that God said it and they did it and it worked.

So much wisdom there...the difference for us today is that we cannot gain holiness by observing these things - it just may make life a bit easier. God bless.


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2011/11/27 8:54Profile
David_G
Member



Joined: 2011/11/27
Posts: 13
Irving Tx

 Re:

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/

Check out this website. Download the pdf. It will bless you.


_________________
David R. Grider

 2011/11/27 11:35Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1901


 Re:

Hi all Just hoping that anyone could tackle my statement below????

Christians who tithe often say that the consequences of not tithing is not being blessed financially,however the scripture below says that its "faith" and "seeking gods kingdom and his righteousness" and all things will be added.Could anyone comment on this thanks staff

Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is , and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Therefore take no thought , saying , What shall we eat ? or, What shall we drink ? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed ? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek :) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

 2011/11/27 17:03Profile









 Re:

David g Thanks for this website. It had the additional info about respected teachers agreeing that tithing is not a NT Command. Thanks again.

 2011/11/27 20:34





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