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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Given Her for a Covering by Mike Atnip

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ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7494
Mississippi

 Re:

Blaine, you are working hard to disprove the validity of 1Corinthians 11:1-16.

Applying your methods to disprove it I would then have to say your insistence on praying for the persecuted is unwarranted. I am not aware that Jesus told his disciples to pray for them...


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2011/10/26 11:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:
So bro. You say you believe the gift of tongues is valid today?



Do you read anything I write?? lol

By the way, just stating the fact that Paul taught on tongues and Jesus did not is not a statement of whether I believe it's for today or not. Even the most staunch fundamentalist Baptist will agree that Paul taught on tongues.

Saying "that car is blue" doesnt mean it can go 0-60 in 1.7 seconds.

Krispy

 2011/10/26 11:43
dietolive
Member



Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: Heydave

Dear Brother,

Briefly, an “argument from silence” is a logical fallacy. Whether a specific detail is mentioned in a story or not proves nothing. All we can say for sure is that her headcovering, if she had one, was not mentioned. "Arguing from Silence", like all other logical fallacies, proves nothing, which is the problem with using them.

However, even with this being the case logically, there are even yet reasonable answers for your and Brother Blaine’s assumptions concerning John 12 and Luke 7:


“1/ She was obviously not wearing a head covering.”

Not “obviously”, dear Brother, for the reason I explained above. And to be reasonable and fair with the text, we ought to imagine a Hebrew woman wearing a headcovering under the Old Covenant, just as the inspired Word of God does in Numbers 5:18.

Specifically in this case, consider if you will: Have you never seen a woman wear the “long veil”? The ends of her long hair may be easily exposed, if necessary, while still keeping the majority of the veil in-place. If Mary were following this Old Covenant custom, she could have performed her extraordinary act of humility and worship, while still wearing the veil.


“2/ Jesus did not stop her from doing it, in fact commended her (see v.7)”

Amen, dear Brother. Yes, this was quite an act of public devotion, for this lady to anoint the Lord’s feet with her own hair, (the feet being the dirtiest part of the body in those “dusty road” days, while the long hair of a lady being one of the cleanest), instead of using some mere cloth or towel usually set aside for the purpose. What an awesome and majestic moment it must have been!


“3/ She was not alone with Jesus, but all the disciples were there. i.e she was in public.”

Yes, I agree. Her’s was a glorious act of humility and reverential awe for all to see.


"4/ There is nothing in this account that indicates that this was an issue at all with either Jesus or His disciples."

Yes. I would say you are correct. Neither should we take issue with what she did.

Be well dear Brother,
Doug

 2011/10/26 12:42Profile
mikey2
Member



Joined: 2011/5/5
Posts: 112


 Re:

Can someone help me out?

Do we shave because the world has beards?

Or are we more spiritual if we grow a beard. Or do we grow a beard because the world shaves?

In not wanting to be "worldly", should women let the hair on their legs and underarms grow in order to make them distinctive from the world?

Should Christian men with long hair, cut it? How long is long? Should Christian women who are obviously feminine and have short hair, grow it out? Can you tell me what the length in inches should be?

In order to not be "worldly", should Christian women that wear pants, begin wearing ankle length dresses?

Should men stop wearing goatees because the world (especially hollywood) wears them?

And how large of a head covering, doilie should my wife wear? She loves the Lord and loves and respects me but would like to be even more spiritual. Although, I don't want her to be too spiritual (I have told her she can't grow the hair on her legs or underarms).

We want to be spiritual and enlightened and not snobby, so please help us. We don't desire to twist scripture. We want to be accepted by those that are spiritual.

And what about fingernail polish? Of course my wife's hands are so attractive without fingernail polish that I have even asked her to start wearing gloves.

Is there some sort of Christian Burka we could come up with to cover our women completely. You know, men today stumble at just about anything.

And perfume and nice smelling soaps? Give me a break. That's a no brainer. I bet you're thinking I am really not that spiritual if I need help on all these questions. No, you'll be glad to know that I'm not that dense. I already told my wife to bathe only once a week and stop with the nice smelling soaps and perfumes. She confided that she is not too happy about all this, but I told her the cross is not supposed to "feel" good and that she should just be content in feeling more spiritual. And I told her, it will all "grow" on her (excuse the pun).

Once my wife starts wearing dresses all the time, has a body full of hair, doesn't use worldly perfumes, wears a hat and gloves, I'm sure people are gonna get saved left and right. I've already nicknamed her my "NeanderGirl".

How could Paul really write this? I bet some worldly "scribe" change a few words in the Bible.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Thanks for all you help. :-)

 2011/10/26 12:42Profile
dietolive
Member



Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: staff

Dear Sister,

You wrote:
“My point was the apostles did not over burden the gentiles but sent them instructions that they could bare and a message that would encourage and uplift them.”

My dear Sister, if you love the Lord in truth, then you know that He loves you in the Spirit. With gravity and in all sincerity, I ask you consider the following questions:

Can you bear being shackled to a wall in an underground room, hand and foot, for an hour? For a day? For a month?

Can you bear having a cigarette burn on your back? How about your arm? Your face?

Can you bear being stripped and tortured before a blood-thirsty crowd screaming to see your blood?

Now, let me ask you, my dear Sister:

Can you bear covering your hair when you pray or prophesy? Would you try to, if you believed it was truly God’s Holy will for you?

Does not our Great Heavenly Father possess limitless Oceans of Grace to plentifully bestow upon all the children who ask Him?

Yes, God does call us to do the hard thing sometimes, and history teaches us that God calls His people to go through Very hard things sometimes. But though He has called His Saints to walk through the fire, He has NEVER sent them there empty-handed, and because of the Great Love that He has you and for us all, He NEVER will.

True Love rejoices in the Truth.
True Love bears all things.
True Love believes all things.
True Love hopes all things,
True Love endures all things.

True Love never fails.” I Corinthians 13:6-8

“...Lo, I am with you always! even unto the end of the world.” Matthew 28:30

What great encouragement; what Love, what consolation to know in our heart of hearts THIS!

You ask:
“1-Why is the head covering issue related to prayer and prophesy?”

The apostle tells us that the reason has to do with something completely separate from Time and one’s own culture: Headship. The Headship of God the Father over Christ, and the Headship of Christ over the Man, and the Headship of the Man over the Woman.

Now, consider if you will the nature of Prayer and Prophesy... In their most basic form, they ultimately come to this: Prayer is ministering TO God. Prophesy is ministering to another, on the BEHALF of God. In prayer and prophesy, we are either speaking to God, or speaking on behalf of God.

Prayer: When a New Covenant priest prays (see Revelation 1:6), he or she approaches to the Holy God through the veil and into the Holy of Holies in Heaven. He or she does not go empty-handed however, (according to the prescribed manner made known to us by the apostles), but with the precious Blood of Jesus Christ. Thoroughly covered with the Blood, and washed through and through and through, this New Covenant priest is pleasing to God and ministers intercessions, giving of thanks, and renderings of praise before God Himself.

Prophesy: When a New Covenant priest “speaks forth” the Word of the Lord, he or she is claiming the unction, the anointing of the Most High God. What an awesome responsibility: to be a representative of God on earth.

Ultimately, proper Headship relationships are to be seen, not only by men, but also apparently even by the angels. The apostle’s inspired tradition is that the men UNCOVER their heads while speaking to God or on behalf of God. This is how the male priest is now to properly approach unto God in prayer, or properly represents Him while speaking on His behalf to others.

On the other hand, the apostle's inspired tradition is that women COVER their heads, while speaking to God, or to others on behalf of God. This is how the female priest properly presents herself before God or while speaking to others on His behalf. Yes, women have been raised up in the New Covenant: they are now to be true Spiritual Priests of God, but they still must follow the prescribed pattern as laid out by the inspired apostles.

Finally, you ask:
“2-What are the consequences of not wearing a headcovering?”


Well, it would depend. Do you know to do right, but do it not? Then that would be sin for you. (James 4:17)

But let me say it this way, dear Sister, because I think it will be helpful in understanding the heart of God towards us, His children:

Let’s say a man asks his dear Wife to make him an apple pie. He loves having Apple Pie for dessert, and his wife knows it. However, she answers him, “No. I have the time and I have the apples, but I don’t want to make you an apple pie. I still love you though. Apple Pies are such little things to me. That’s okay with you, right?”

“Ummm. OK Honey”, he replies. A few months later, he asks her again “Would you please make me an apple pie? I would love a piece of your delicious apple pie.” But she responds again “No, I don’t want to make you an apple pie. But the fact that I don’t want to make you a pie is not big deal. I still love you...”

It may seem like a small thing to her, but it was still important to him. Would he “feel” loved if every time he asked for apple pie, she just said: “No, making him apples pies wasn’t important?”


Another analogy may be helpful:

If I told my wife to expect my Boss home for dinner next Friday night, and when the day came and he and I arrived, if we found the house a wreak and no dinner made, and my wife coming out with a big smile saying “oh..., I didn’t want to prepare anything. It’s not a big deal, right?”: Wouldn’t I be EMBARRASSED before my Boss? Quite.


Just so with our Lord.

Try substituting the word “embarrass” for “dishonour” wherever it occurs in I Corinthians 11:4-5. It gives a more pointed sense to our modern ears, of what it means in the Spiritual Realm to not follow this tradition of the apostle when praying or prophesying.


Thanks for writing and reasoning with me. I appreciate your time dear Sister.

Be well,
Doug

 2011/10/26 12:48Profile
mikey2
Member



Joined: 2011/5/5
Posts: 112


 Re:

Christians "bear" a lot that they should not have to bear and that the Lord is not asking them to bear. But they are taught incorrectly.

Many use the Bible for themselves (own gain and outward "spirituality") and end up spiritually abusing others, especially their wives. Reminds me of the muslims.

Let's face it. In certain Christian groups if you are to appear spiritual and be accepted to the others then you must conform in your dress and outward appearance.

 2011/10/26 13:01Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3420
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
mikey2 wrote:
Once my wife starts wearing dresses all the time, has a body full of hair, doesn't use worldly perfumes, wears a hat and gloves, I'm sure people are gonna get saved left and right. I've already nicknamed her my "NeanderGirl".


LOLOLOLOL Thank you for the chuckle in this heated debate!!


_________________
Lisa

 2011/10/26 13:16Profile
rainydaygirl
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:

Can you bear covering your hair when you pray or prophesy? Would you try to, if you believed it was truly God’s Holy will for you?
___

Doug
What if I say to you that I have prayed and searched out Gods will in this. What if I said that I have prayed and asked my husband to do so also. What if I say to you that we have searched the Bible for understanding and yet we do not feel the Lord leading us to keep to this practice. What would you say to me and to my husband? Can we still fellowship together, can you look at me and not consider me to be in rebellion because I do not hold to your belief of wearing a head covering all the time? Would you consider my not wearing a head covering dishonoring to my husband?

Just trying to understand your heart and attitudes on this matter. Thank you for taking the time to consider my questions.

in Him
rdg

 2011/10/26 13:31Profile









 Re: Ginnyrose

Sister what I am trying to reason on this and other threads is our acceptance with Jesus Christ is based on his finished work on the cross. Only through faith in Jesus are we delared righteos in his sight. Only by his Spirit living in our heart can we walk in holiness.

The righteous will live by faith. Faith is a heart issue. It is faith and faith alone that pleases God. Not the external headware. The thing that God wants out of our hearts are the fruit of his Spirit. His fruit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness, and self-control. Against these inward virtues of the heart there is no law. This fruit is born by the life of Christ that flows into our hearts by union with him. This is explained by Jesus in John 15 in the vine and the branches. I don't know how ekse to explain this.

Are we going to let 16 verses out of 1 Cor.11 be the test of orthodoxy. These verses, which are probably cultural, should not be used as a litmus test for our standing in Christ. If one chooses to wear the covering in their assembly then it should be a matter of freedom and conviction, not as a binding command of the New Covenant.


There are only two commands that Jesus enjoined upon New Covenant believers. That is love of God and love of neighbor. Too me this is enough to occupy our time. As one brother has said if we are doing this then some of this other stuff such as head coverings and whatever we will fall by the way side.

At the risk of being accused of bringing up a man's name Let us go back and listen to Carter Conlin's message on Jesus loving people through us. If anyone will listen to that message with an open heart than this and other discussions will be put in proper perspective.
And then Ginny you will see why I pray for the persecuted.

Blaine

 2011/10/26 13:51
JLM
Member



Joined: 2011/10/20
Posts: 7


 Re:

Hi HeyDave,

You stated "What do you think Paul means when he says at the end of this discourse "We have no such custom, nor do the churches of God"?"

Verse 16 states "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God." Some have said this means Paul is saying that if anyone wants to argue about this, it is not that important and none of this really matters after all. I would have difficulty with that interpretation due to the fact that Paul just spent 1/2 a chapter writing about it. If it didn't matter, why bother intructing in a non-essential; therefore it appears we must look for another understanding.

The interpretation that makes sense with the context is that Paul is saying we have no custom of contention over such issues. Some things are a matter of opinion, whereas other things are definite and not to be argued over. God has clearly spoken and this is God's way. This is my understanding of this issue. To sum it up, I would understand this to say that God has commanded women to have their heads covered and men to have their heads unconvered and there is no place for arguement over this issue. (This is not to say there is no room for discussion on what the covering exactly is, but whether or not the covering is an issue we should believe in and obey or not.)
JLM

 2011/10/26 13:52Profile





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