Brother Greg

I read your article and will give it much prayer and thought.I do agree with the writer that anything one must do these things because they are lead by the Holy Spirit to do them and not because of what men say. I think for me my struggles from traditions and keeping them comes in when those around you, those who hold to them as a means of determining a persons walk does not allow you the liberty in CHRIST not to keep them. There are those who cling to their traditions and hold them so dear, sadly there is no room for what the LORD might be showing another in their walk...

God bless will be away for a time
Maryjane

Maryjane writes.........

"I think for me my struggles from traditions and keeping them comes in when those around you, those who hold to them as a means of determining a persons walk does not allow you the liberty in CHRIST not to keep them. There are those who cling to their traditions and hold them so dear, sadly there is no room for what the LORD might be showing another in their walk..."

Sister, I believe that you have hit the nail on the head. There is love, and there is judgement. People are not stupid, whether they are saved or unsaved, they know the difference. I think the author would agree with your point.......brother Frank

With all of the emphasis on Turtullien and Cyprian, have we forgotten what the Apostle Paul wrote. Did not Paul say in Acts 20:21 that he preached that men should turn to God in repentence and have faith in our Lord Jesus. Is not our walk with Christ a walk of faith and not works. Am I missing something here?

Respectfully submitted,

Blaine

Hello Martyr,

Just a few thoughts to share and would like to know what you think if you wish.

Traditions is the most despised word among the people of God and the unsaved world alike.
Yet traditions is what Mary Peckham calls in her account of the revival on the Isle of Lewis “ The fuel the caught the fire of the Holy Spirit”. She describes the life on the island before the revival as a life of traditions where the Scriptures were taught in schools, both saved and unsaved were committed to prayer, Scripture reading in their homes. Both saved and unsaved were taught the catechism. Tradition is not salvation but preparation of the way of the Lord.

Traditions is preparing the way of the Lord that John the Baptist came to do. It is the call to repentance to the people of God that have gone astray and grown cold, Only the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
But why the house of Israel if they were lost. What makes the difference between lost and lost.
The answer is tradition. The lost people of God ( if you permit the expression )are those who have head knowledge of the ways of God, those who experienced His deliverances in the past, Who posses His fear in their hearts, who have been entrusted to His Word.

In His book “ A Serious Call To A Devout And Holy Life” William Law paved the way to the Great Awakening through its influence on John, and Charles Wesley, George Whitefield to conventional piety and Christian perfection although the book itself hardly contains a Gospel message.
The Holy Club consisted of unsaved people who sought the Lord through sever fasting and long hours of prayer whom God saved, filled with the Holy Spirit and used to change the fabric of England.

Traditions is the fear of God that must come back to the church if God is to ever revive, bend her and save the world.

In the book “ Back To Jerusalem” Chinese believers give credit to the Communist authorities who in their efforts to demolish Christianity have paved the way to the spread of the Gospel. Some of the key factors that helped the spread of the gospel were that much of China’s idolatry was removed during the Cultural Revolution, People were FORCED to denounce their wrong doings and reform their lives in what was known as the “Culture of Confession” .

Tradition is the way by which Cornelius sought the Lord thus opening the way to the Gentile church of whom Peter said “ Truly I perceive that God has no respect of Persons but in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is accepted with him.”

However, traditions must be coupled by hunger of more of God. It is not enough to fear him, repent of our evil ways, fast and pray as if He is to be so pleased by it. Traditions is not salvation but it is the fuel that catches it’s flame.

Have you been grieved when Bibles were taken out of schools? If you have, what made you grieve?
Does it break your heart that America is becoming a secular nation? That family values are being torn apart by the liberals? Does it grieve you that the majority of people do not believe in hell anymore? That gay rights are being promoted? Why do you grieved? Would you like to have Cornelius of the book of Acts for a neighbor, or a liberal gay though they both may be unsaved and both need the Lord?

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Fifi

Yes, Brother Greg; yes, the author is exactly spot on.

The early Church, (and the early Methodists for that matter), appear "legalistic" and "dead" to us in the West today because of our mis-preconceptions about Biblical soteriology and discipleship. Then we see them doing "dead Catholic" looking things, like fasting on a day or two of every week, or praying a certain number of times a day.

It isn't surprising then that we are in danger of over-reacting, and then running them, their doctrines, and their practices down. Then, this pervading spirit of "reactionism" (it is to be feared), also can lead us to actively discourage our Brothers and Sister today, who still follow the like traditions, or otherwise seek to rob them of their joy in their practices that differ from ours.

Jesus said, (paraphrasing): "Treat others the way you would want to be treated." If we do this in every case, we will do well.

One example:
William Wilberforce apparently put a rock in one of his shoes every day; this to remind a wealthy and influential politician in the most powerful nation on earth at that time, that he was still just a lowly servant of his Lord Jesus Christ; powerless to do any good unless God first deigned to bestow the necessary grace.

Dear Brother or Sister: If you daily "put a rock in your shoe", (or whatever your tradition may be), and it is a living means of grace in your life too, then praise God! I am thankful to God for a tradition that works more of God's life into your life.

Be well all,
Doug

Sister your post contained some interesting observations. In a nutshell yes God can use traditions to bring sinners into a marvelous relationship with Jesus. Afterall even the law becomes a tutor to bring one to Christ.

But what of those people who have no traditions. Example the vilest, most depraved biker who rides with an outlaw biker gang. That biker finds a New Testament. He reads it and is covicted of his sins. He calls out to Jesus for mercy and is gloriously converted. Now that biker is sharing the love if Jesus with his other biker buddies. VOM reports how hardened Marxist guerillas in Columbia with no traditions will respond to the gospel message of the love of Jesus. I have seen the videos where they lay down the AK47's and go down on their knees confessing Christ.

I don't know if I am responding to your post. You seem to imply that God can use tradition to bring revival and conversion. True. But also God is sovereign and his Spirit blows where it will igniting. hearts with faith. And I think therein lies the thing that troubles ne.

In my thread What About the Early Church I have been reasoning for a greater dependence upon the Spirit. Yet there seen to be some who would take issue with this. It seems the freedom and joy the Spirit eould bring is pretty scary for those secure in rules.

Just my thoughts.

Blaine

Hello Martyr,
Yes you are right about the marvelous conversions in Third world countries who are already experiencing revival. The unsaved sre lead to Christ by believers who are filled by the Holy Spirit.

That does not contradict God's design which is the church living in constant revival causes the salvation of the world.
The church here in the West is dead. They are much like Israel in her backslidden state. They are the wayward people of God who need to repent, fast, pray, put on sackcloth and ashes. They are the ones that need to repent not the world because they are the ones that know the law of God, His Word.

Revival happens when the churched people saved and unsaved pray, fast, repent of what they know to be sin.
when God sees that they are serious about seeking Him He begins to work. He pours on them the Spirit of Supplication, and reveals to them further sin in their lives that they were unaware of that needs to be repented of and restitutions made.
Slowley but surely as the church is cleansed to the point where it is safe for the Holy Spirit to come down He comes and revival takes place. Then and only then the church is fit to evangalize the world.

So, yes, we need traditions back. We need fasting, long hours of prayer, humbling ourselves as best as we know how. We need Bible memorizations back in the church. We need that Fathers would step and take charge of their homes and father their children. We need the old values to be resrored even if it is to be in the flesh till God decides to come back to the church.

When Goergewhitefield and John and Charles Wesley were fasting and praying they were not yet saved, but God honoured their endeavours and saved them and used them to change a whole nation.

But we live in a generation that talks too much about filthy rags and works of the flesh, you would think that we have Spirit filled people more than the sand of the sea when in fact it is the most spiritually impoverished generation that ever existed. We need the sackcloth back, brother. Don't you agree?

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Fifi

My sister to answer your question in alll gentleness and respect I do not agree. As I read your post it seems you are setting forth traditions as works to get God's attention. Be it salvation, sanctification, or revival any activity of God toward us is grace and grace alone. Paul writes in Titus 2:11-12.......For the grace that brings salvation has appeared.to all men. It teaches us to say 'No' to ungodliness and worldly passions and to live self-controlled, upright, and goodly lives in this present age. .......

I must try to finish this at another opportunity.

But you spoke of traditions bringing about repentence. Sister might I suggest that repentence is a work of the Spirit. John writes in his gospel......

martyr said: "As I read your post it seems you are setting forth traditions as works to get God's attention."

You mean like Cornelius in Acts 10?