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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


I have been praying on this since the first thread on head coverings was posted and it has been heavy on my heart. I write the following in all love for those who are here on SI. My issue with some of the recent threads, is that opinion are being given in such a way that seem to say the head covering is proof of a woman's heart and love for the LORD. Some of what has been shared comes very close to saying that if women do not wear a head covering then she is not as serious about her walk or not as far along in her walk as women who do wear a head covering.

At this point I am not sure what to make of this all. It does almost seem as if a line is being drawn here....

Prayerfully seeking GOD on how to move forward
God bless

 2011/10/9 9:26Profile


Greg, you wrote.......

"To be honest with you brother, internal righteousness will exhibit itself in outward righteousness in some way."

Brother, I and others have spent countless words trying to conve just that, simply even read my last post on this thread to Alan.

You write..........

"And it is interesting to me how people argue so strongly against externals of headcovering or less makeup and modesty etc. Why do we oppose things that are simply things that flow from an internal righteousness in a sister."

Brother, not one single time have I opposed head-coverings, nor have ever said that a woman should not dress modestly. I would expect every Christian woman to dress modestly. I would also expect every single Christian to do what is right with their money, whether they have much or little. My objection is to those who who set themselves up as the judge of what is modest( leaving aside head-coverings here for a moment) or how much money is too much money. What you are doing is usurping the Holy Spirit when you do this. I wont mention total obedience to man as we have had that discussion before.

Here, with your next statement, i think we finally get down to it, and it has taken a lot of digging, you write........

"Sanctification is not a second step or just a good thing to have it is the qualification that you are saved and going even further "it is your salvation". You cannot seperate the two! Sanctification is salvation, it is the outflow of your justification experience into everyday life. Thus we must not minimize it somehow. If we have been saved by the Blood of the Lamb then we will be sanctified from this world in our mind, heart, life, dress, clothes, actions, use of money, etc."

Here brother, in my opinion, you have made a grave error. The process of sanctification is a life-times work. God takes broken lifes, and with great patience ( oh thank you Lord) He begins to put it back together, piece by piece. Why do you think a Christian has to be broken Greg? Broken from what? What do you think the refining process is brother? Refining from what? Why do you think every Christian reading this has dross in their lives that needs to be refined? Dont you realize by the statement you made that you have just challenged almost every Christian on this site that they are really not Christians? If, your statement is correct, and someone disagrees with the standard that you have put forward and have been putting forward for weeks now, they then must not be sanctified,
thereofore, they are not truly saved. I believe that many people who have answered the posts that you put forward got that you were trying to say that, they got it in their spirit, but now you have, it seems, been honest.

Brother, let me say it one more time and I say this out of love for you, because to believe, if I am reading you correctly, what you believe must be a hard Romans 7 road to walk, we , as genuine Christians are totaly righteous in the eyes of God. When He looks at us, He sees us as covered by the Blood of Jesus. Its a finished work, you cannot add or take away from it, its a total package. But brother, you gave Him your life, its no longer yours, and He takes what He is given, what He has purchased. That is why when we are in the refining fire, we know that this is part of what brings us to be more like Him. It is a process to be more like Him. Our lives are spent becoming more like Him, precept upon precept. Every stronghold torn down. Please consider these words in love. I have yet to read a regular poster on this site on these last few threads argue against Holiness, argue against modesty, argue against becoming more like Jesus. What they have been arguing against is the notion that you just articulated. I thank you for your honesty Greg, now we can have a real discussion. I know that many of the wonderful saints on this site will have marvelous things to say about Frank

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who bewitched you not to obey the truth, to whom before your eyes Jesus Christ was written among you crucified?
Gal 3:2 This only I would learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh?

 2011/10/9 10:09


I am finding the thread title to be we speak of external righteousness. To me this does speak of a kegakisn, a praiseeism, and reminds me some ways of what Mislems teach in their religion. The very ones of us who would condenm the Saudi's of requiring their women to wear the hajib insist that sisters wear a vail to pray or prophesy or to remain silent in church.

Though this may not be intended there is a standard of holiness being set forth and unfortunately that standard is not Jesus or the fruit he bears through union with him. I see no emphasis on the Spirit or the fruit he bears. There is no emphasis on the cross, the crucified life, Christ living in us, his grace that brings about holiness.

If one had to define a Sermon Index holy woman I imagine it woukd be a sister who was KJV only, wore a head covering, stayed silent, and submissive,and meek to her husband. I have yet to define what a Sermon Index holy man is. I imagine one who is KJV only.

I am not trying to be caustic or cynical. But if we put the last few threads together this is what is emerging. The sad thing is the forum is losing some solid grace oriented people.

The sister who posted before me has already expressed concerns. I ask what is being communicated here. If holiness is going to be defined by externals then please let us who believe in grace and love know so we can quietly withdraw. For I already am seeing that those of us who believe in the inward work of the Spirit are being marginalized.


 2011/10/9 10:23

Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1133
Germany NRW

 Re: The Beauty of EXTERNAL righteousness

Has anyone considered what Jesus said:
Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

He commands to clean the inside first, which is the heart, SO THAT the outside may be clean also. These two must go together, I trust no one who does not prove to me with outside evidence that his or her inside is clean.

He did not do away with the outside righteousness
Here are some examples for inside/outside righteousness
Love is not rude - kind speech, meek spirit
Love towards the brother, not wanting him to be tempted - modest dress
Submission to order in the church - head covering

 2011/10/9 13:23Profile

Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1133
Germany NRW

 Re: The Beauty of EXTERNAL righteousness

<edit> deleted duplicate

 2011/10/9 13:23Profile


HI Narrowpath, lets give the context of the Scripture you just quoted.......

Mat 23:25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Blind Pharisee! First cleanse the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which indeed appear beautiful outside, but inside they are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so you also appear righteous to men outwardly, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

You see what Jesus is saying here? The outside already looks really great, but inside they are like whitewashed tombs, full of dead mens bones. That is why there is a danger on a "FOCUS," on the outward appearance. Key word here being focus. The danger does not apply on the flip side. There is no danger in ' cleansing the inside of the cup," becaause out of that will flow a true, genuine Godliness that the whole world can see with their eyes. That is why I wrote just a few posts back that .........

"The internal issue is the whole, and it manifests itself outwardly. There can be no counterfieting this, there is no danger on focusing on the inner man, because, if our hearts are right, if we are walking in the Spirit, if we are moving in the holiness of God because we encounter Him and are changed in His presence, then it automaticly shows itself on the outside with love and mercy and forgiveness. The man who encounters God and His holiness loves more, he forgives more, he moves in mercy, he devours the Word of God. There is no danger in pursuing God with all of your heart, in fact it is what we must do and when we do then the externals are taking care of, they naturally flow from the inside out." Frank

 2011/10/9 14:40

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1262


Great posting Frank and I also have appreciated your consistency in the Lord in all matters no matter who is posting. Also Blaine, you did some good posting and also others I failed to mention.

I haven’t posted in a while but really felt the need to say something to those who would try to put others in bondage or make others fill less sanctified because of a custom that has nothing to do with the finished work of Christ. I truly believe that we would be sinning against Christ to try and put women in bondage with a custom that is not required by our Lord but was to be considered in a particular time.

It is almost like what false brethren were doing in (Galatians 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:) trying to take women away from the liberty in Christ.

The passage in chapter 11 in 1 Corinthian deals with a time and custom of a people back then and it plainly tells us with the words (custom and symbol). The spirit of truth in the passage should be followed without putting people in bondage by not being able to cut their hair or to have them wear a piece of cloth as a covering. I thank God that the leadership of TSC in New York and other godly ministries have enough wisdom and love for the lost and the church not to turn people off with a custom that is not conducive for the area they are ministering the gospel in.

If the Apostle Paul could say that if one is circumcised as a reason in trying to keep the Law in order to be accepted by God has fallen from grace, and also, at another time tell Timothy to be circumcised in order to minister the gospel to certain people so that they would be able to receive him. Why on earth would we want to put people in bondage to do something that turns the mainstream of the people we are trying to reach and minster to away from receiving us and the message of life and hope that so many desperately need.

How about we ask the body of Christ who are bound to the head covering that they pray and ask God to free them from this custom so that we can better reach the lost and edify believers’ without distracting them from Jesus with something that looks like we are trying to put women in bondage as the Muslims are doing who don’t even believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior.

Blessings to all!

 2011/10/9 15:17Profile

 Re: rbanks

Brother as we used to say back in the 60's 'Right on bro, right on'. My way of saying 'very good post'.


 2011/10/9 15:53

Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1133
Germany NRW


Hi Frank,

I agree with you completely that outside righteousness flows out of inside cleanness. I also agree with you that focus on the outside at the expense of the inside is pharisaical. No one here said that we should focus on outside righteousness, neither did the original poster. Outside righteousness is the first thing that we see and it takes a close look and discernment to see whether it is genuine or not. That does not mean that we should shun away from outward righteousness as many nowadays sadly do.

On this forum they mention examples of women God uses in preaching, who do not cover their head and do not hold to the biblical concept of leaving the preaching of the word to men. They conclude that because God is using someone, he exempts them from these "nasty and small commandments" and anyone who raises the slightest question is labelled a legalist. They argue that why bother as long as they do the Lord's work and save souls. Strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
It is equally simplistic and wrong to argue that those who do not follow everything in the bible are not used by God.

God does use people who do not do everything right and even promote some false teaching, and many stumble over this.

Spurgeon smoked, Wesley had long hair, Catherine Booth and Corrie tenBom preached, Luther got it wrong with the Jews.

Does that meant they were not used by God? No.

Does that mean that God exempted them from "the smaller commandments" and endorses all they did? No.

We should aim to fulfil God's commandments internally and externally, the big as well as the small ones.

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Joab is an example of outward righteousness without internal godliness. He wrought many victories for Israel and David. He even rebuked David at times for the better. He served David faithfully for many years. On the outside he was a faithful and vaillant warrior. He was right most of the times -technically. Nevertheless he had murdered two men more righteous than him. He believed that his faithful service and victories made good for his 2 accounts of murder. Deep inside he was a vengeful and bitter man. Only at the reign of Solomon was justice done and judgement executed to avert bloodguilt. Solomon acted on the advice of his father David to demonstrate that this was not acceptable. Joab held fast the horns of the altar when his executioner came. He maintained that he was a righteous man until the end; nevertheless God finally caught up with him.

 2011/10/9 16:25Profile


"They conclude that because God is using someone, he exempts them from these "nasty and small commandments" and anyone who raises the slightest question is labelled a legalist"

Well brother, I cannot answer for anyone else, just myself and if you have been following along, you would know that this phrase " nasty and small commandments," is not and could not be part of my vocabulary.

You write............

"God does use people who do not do everything right and even promote some false teaching, and many stumble over this.
Spurgeon smoked, Wesley had long hair, Catherine Booth and Corrie tenBom preached, Luther got it wrong with the Jews.

Does that meant they were not used by God? No.

Does that mean that God exempted them from "the smaller commandments" and endorses all they did? No."

This has been one of the main points I have been trying to articulate. God bless you Frank

 2011/10/9 17:03

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